Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hungary–Slovakia relations

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WP:SNOW keep (non-admin close). I have rewritten the article instead. —what a crazy random happenstance 05:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hungary–Slovakia relations

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Hungary–Slovakia relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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This page is simply irretrievably lost to nationalism, next to none of it is usable or encyclopaedic in any form. Section 13 as it stands... I just... I don't think I can fit all the policy violations occurring there into just one paragraph. The article overall exhibits blatant and utterly apparent one-sidedness, obvious NPOV violations, wholly unreliable sources, and a reliance on weasel words and scare quotes. I fail to see how sentences like "Since deputy prime minister Robert Fico declared the "wise historism" concept, the history books are getting rewritten in a faster pace than before, and in an increased "spirit of national pride". This "spirit of national pride" is determined by Matica Slovenská, which Krekovič, Mannová and Krekovičováare claim are mainly nothing else, but history falsifications" are meant to document the international relations of Hungary and Slovakia in any meaningful sense whatsoever. The page has continued to exist in this state for a significant length of time, and from an interaction on the talk page appears to have been abandoned by all but hardline nationalist editors pushing their agenda, which has next to nothing to do with the title topic in the first place. The appalling state of this article necessitates a fresh start, it should thus be deleted. (Note: I am not involved in any dispute involving this article.) —what a crazy random happenstance 09:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Does it pass WP:GNG? Yes. So don't delete it. AfD is not a place to resolve content issues, unless that issue is that it's too unimportant to have any. If there is a content problem, resolve it with other users. If they are unwilling to talk, well, WP:MEDCAB and WP:MEDCOM exist for a reason. Ironholds (talk) 09:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - I must also point out that even if the content situation was a valid AfD reason, you haven't made any attempt I can see to correct your perceived problems with the article. As a matter of fact, you haven't edited it since January except to correct a typo. Ironholds (talk) 10:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentHe did edit on the talk page and see the reacton on him and me....Knorrepoes (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - POV issues are not a valid reason to delete an article on an otherwise notable subject. See WP:POLE. When someone pushes POV, push back (civilly, and without violating WP:3RR), and we'll end up with a more or less okay article. - DustFormsWords (talk) 09:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I have to say this nomination is absurd on it's face on the notability of the subject and large number of parallel articles alone. It seems that instead of making suggestion on changing the article, studying and understanding the subject, reading up on it and adding more content he chose to ignore policy and attempt to use a WP:POINT deletion discussion to advocate for removal of a single paragraph of the content from the article. I see a lot of hyperbole here without any explanation ("wholly unreliable sources" which ones?) I would also wonder why would a nominator choose to notify user:Groubani [1] and nobody else of this discussion. It seems that this nomination and it's circumstances is a violation of various policies and I don't think that even the nominator believes that the article will be deleted because he does not agree with some of it's content. Hobartimus (talk) 09:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The deletion of this article is not a solution. The article needs an attention of unbiased editors, familiar with the topic. Nationalism is one of the greatest curses of this project, a real plague, a real shame. Unfortunatelly, the situation over the article perfectly reflects the real situation. --Vejvančický (talk) 10:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. —Vejvančický (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Slovakia-related deletion discussions. —Vejvančický (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Although seriously rewriting is necessary ! Article should become in line with all wiki policies. Deleting is not needed, fact is that there are extremists on both sides and thus that there are difficulties in relations between the two countries. That should be mentioned, so there is a reason for the article as such.Knorrepoes (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Bilateral relations between counties sharing a land border are inherently notable. POV issues can be fixed with editing. Yilloslime TC 16:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    That's all well and good - except it doesn't seem to have happened in the two years this article has existed, and isn't likely to. I am not advocating this is salted, merely deleted so it can be recreated in a more neutral spirit. The article as it stands isn't going to attract any Slovak or neutral editors to attempt to balance it, as has been expressed on talk. We can act idealistically, keep it, and end up with years' worth of nationalistic garbage, or delete it and allow concerned editors a chance to work towards a neutral consensus-supported article anew. Policy buzzwords ought to reflect our actions, not shape them. —what a crazy random happenstance 17:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "That's all well and good - except it doesn't seem to have happened in the two years this article has existed, and isn't likely to." It is rare to hear such strong and confident statements which are so ignorant of basic facts. Of course the article is nowhere near two years old. In fact many of the things described in the article didn't even occur two years ago. Many events happened in the second half of 2009 so they could be hardly in Wikipedia before they happened. In fact the article before the first major edit in 2009 august looked like this. [2] Not much content and "wholly unreliable sources" to object to there huh? Even if we count the creation as a stub it's still not two years. So I would ask the nominator to stop making statements which show how little he knows and how little he cares to find out more about the topic he is discussing. Hobartimus (talk) 18:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with the nominator in the case that any attempts (like mine) to neutralise the article (to which I came accidently) have been vigorously reversed and thus that it may take a long time to get an acceptable article. I also agree with Hobartimus that many items occurred recently. But many of the things described on the page do not belong there, but on the page of Jan Slota or similar. When I proposed that, it was immediately reversed. So I gave up.Knorrepoes (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ahem, the stuff said by Slota is included in the article on himself as well. I disagree with the removal of the Slota-related stuff, because even though his debauched acts may seem bizarre, absurd to the highest degree and funny at times (e.g. when he's threatening the listeners on press conferences that the Hungarian army is standing around the corner and is about to overrun Slovakia, therefore they should worry about that instead of his and his party's schemes and embezzlements of public funds which happens almost on a daily basis), unfortunately far too many people take him seriously. Therefore many of the anti-Hungarian sentiments are rooted in his fear-mongering (not to say that the nationalists use precisely his own words to describe Hungarians e.g. as Mongols, mongoloids, Huns etc.). Therefore he's a major contributor to the conflict between the two countries (nations?). CoolKoon (talk) 12:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say to remove it, but deal with it mainly on his page, and on the page on Hungary-Slovakia relations, just give a short summary and refer to his page. Here in Holland we have a similar politician Geert Wilders making similar threats to Islam, Morocco, Turkey etc, and his quotes are mentioned on his page. Not on pages such as Netherlands-Turkey relations (which I see does not even exist) and that is to my opinion the way it should be.Knorrepoes (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wilders's party the PVV is in opposition, while SNS is a government party since 2006, ruling the country with it's coalition partners. The two is not comparable, a government shapes the events and foreign relations of a country. If this holland party becomes part of Government then it will have an impact on relations with it's neighbors (note how Turkey, Morocco is not bordering the Netherlands, not even on the same continent). Hobartimus (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's a slight difference between Wilders' outlashes and those of Slota. The thing is Hungarians are an indigenous population within Slovakia i.e. they were there just as long as the Slovaks themselves. Despite this they are perceived (by Slovaks) as mere "immigrants", who came from....well...."somewhere" in the process of magyarization. Therefore it's a widespread habit of some Slovaks to send Hungarians "to the other side of the Danube" (i.e. other side of the border=Hungary). People such as Slota just capitalize on such reflexes. To give you an analogy, imagine the situation of an extremist in the Netherlands such as Wilder bashing people who speak Frisian and his "fans" recommending them moving to Germany. Well, the same analogy applies to the situation in Slovakia with one exception: even though Dutch and Frisian are somewhat mutually intelligible (I presume), Slovak and Hungarian are not intelligible at all.
You also seem to be kind of ashamed of people such as this Wilders and probably want to silence him by giving him as little media attention as possible. Unfortunately this can't be done with ideas and rhetorics presented by Slota. The thing is, the dominant party of the current government coalition SMER is using the same rhetoric to appeal to its voters (its leader and Slovak prime minister, Robert Fico, in fact, shows much resemblance to Pim Fortuyn), because many people share these ideas and feel some general resentment towards Hungarians and even the language itself (especially those who have never met a Hungarian in person). And these people have quite a few obsessed ones among them, who strive to get as much attention from the mainstream media for their cause as possible. Unfortunately they even succeed because the very same forces are governing the Slovak economy. Therefore the only tool left against this Slota guy is public humiliation e.g. by displaying the absurdity of his own words. I think there's a big difference in the perception of Wilders and Slota in their respective home countries, because people don't resent Slota's ideas even if they resent him in person (due to the fact that he's a thief and thug) and the mainstream media regularly shows his outlashes against Hungarians/Gypsies/homosexuals/political opponents for a "good laugh", ignoring the fact that many people take him seriously. Therefore I think there's no way to silence him. And if you can't, what else can you do besides putting up his wickedness for show? CoolKoon (talk) 21:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: it contains important things. Maybe in the USA these are not known... --Eino81 (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Your point assumes that I am American, and that Americans are all ignorant - neither of those assumptions are true. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Though my opinion on the quality of the article is rather low, deletion of it does not solve anything. --EllsworthSK (talk) 03:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deletion of articles is not the answer. Work to better the article, not erase it. Outback the koala (talk) 03:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As others have said, POV problems are not a good reason to delete an article. I agree that there is an incredible number of problems with the page; the proper solution - painful as it may be - is to address them one by one. Emika22 (talk) 10:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep My very first thought when noticing the AfD notice was: R U nuts?! So in detail: I have to agree with all the others above me that you can't nominate an article for deletion just because you disagree with some or all of its content. Besides do you think that if you stop talking about a problem it'll go away? The problem will remain for sure and will just resurface later. Just to give you a relevant example: in the socialist-era Hungary talking about Hungarians living in the surrounding (also socialist) countries was a taboo. Hungarian politicians speculated that by silencing these facts (and failing to mention it even in history books) the problem will eventually "go away". Well, turns out it didn't. After the east bloc switched to capitalism (to a certain degree :P) this problem has resurfaced again. Not only that, the feelings are just as intense as ever (as if those socialist decades didn't happen at all). So the article shall be here to stay. CoolKoon (talk) 11:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I hate to be the one to have to tell you this - but you are biased. We're all biased to some extent, but most of us attempt not to allow our biases to come through in our work. There is as much illogical xenophobic ill-will in Hungary towards Slovakia as there is in the opposite direction, yet the article is decidedly one-way only. Most people who voted 'Keep' have noted that there are problems within the article, and these ought to be corrected regardless of whether this article is deleted or not. Do not mistake the Keep majority as validation of your preferred version of the article. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the above. Notability is clearly present. As noted, deletion isn't appropriate for the problems I'm seeing. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Notable article and deletion is not the answer to problems within the article. EuroPride (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per CoolKoon.--B@xter9 21:08, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I was sort of hoping my AfD nom would make someone actually interested in improving the article - apparently not so. Everyone's content to nod sagely that one day a hero worthy of the land shall rock up on his stallion and rewrite the article, but until that day we're all going to sit around and twiddle our thumbs and circle dance. If every editor who voted Keep had rewritten just one paragraph on the nominated page, we'd have a neutral article by now. Good work, people. PS: I've attempted a rewrite of the article to make it more neutral, let's see how that works. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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