Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arapahoe High School shooting

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). Mkdwtalk 01:42, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arapahoe High School shooting

[edit]
See also: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karl Pierson


Arapahoe High School shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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WP:NOTNEWS. Unfortunately, school shootings are just not that notable. There were no victims, and I doubt any societal change will occur from this incident. Wikipedia has no deadline, and if it becomes apparent that this is something more than a simple crime, we can write a story on it then. John from Idegon (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, the event will likely spark another debate on gun control and this shooting will be referenced a lot in the coming months. Please note that I created this article. Newyorkadam (talk) 23:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)Newyorkadam[reply]
I also disagree. The frequency of school shootings does not make these events less notable. Also here the proximity to Columbine and Aurora, though arguably spurious, will magnify the public's interest in this event.Dvfinnh (talk) 00:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also disagree. This is absolutely notable and to say it is not is heartless. Also, there are reported victims, unlike you stated above.[1] This in no way should be nominated for deletion.--Zach Pepsin (talk) 23:45, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- not notable in the grand scheme of things. If this is notable, we have to make an article for every gang bang that happened today. The kid used a shotgun, not a contentious weapon. Overall, not notable, in the encyclopedia. -Justanonymous (talk) 23:45, 13 ::December 2013 (UTC)
Comment: This was a school shooting. When a shooting happens in a school it usually gets a lot of national media attention. Shootings at schools are not an everyday occurrence and only happen once every few months. The shooter also committed suicide at the school and apparently had the intention to kill a lot of people, which definitely is not similar to a typical gang-related shooting that happens everyday. Cyanidethistles (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Counter: Just because something happens in a school, doesn't alone make it notable. Just because it crosses Brian Williams desk for 15 seconds doesn't make it worthy of an article. The Dekalb school incident of 2013 also had an article here that was also correctly deleted even though the talking heads on 24 hour infotainment channels tried to make some money on it. This was not a spree shooting. This was not perpetrated with a special gun control target weapon. this appears to be something that happens when you have 300 million people in a technologically connected world. People do bad things sometimes. In 1950, nobody outside the local newspaper would report this. It's not notable-Justanonymous (talk) 00:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Okay, I suppose I agree. I don't really think that this shooting really warrants an article but I was giving out how I felt about all of this. Also, there are articles for Mumford High School shooting and SuccessTech Academy shooting. The Mumford shooting in Detroit doesn't seem to have any national news sources covering it and was just another inner city gang-related shooting that happened outside of the school. I'm surprised those are still up.
Disagree. "This was not perpetrated with a special gun control target weapon." That's a really poor argument. That's like saying that shootings that don't serve a particular political narrative aren't worthy of inclusion.24.14.55.138 (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Indeed, this event is notable because (as I suspect we will see more of soon) a school resource officer immediately confronted the shooter, before he could harm more than one other person, and as we saw with the Navy Yard shooting, a pump shotgun can easily be used to lethal effect: despite the legislative/media focus on military-style rifles, more mass shootings have been perpetrated with handguns and pump action shotguns. These factors make the event highly politically relevant. Tbessler (talk) 16:25, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cyanidethistles (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). I agree with the nomination. It's too soon to create an article on this event. We don't know whether this will have a lasting effect, and to assert that it will is speculation. Wikipedia is not a memorial, so whether we're heartless or not is irrelevant. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:53, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Merge is probably more appropriate, as the long line of merge votes attests. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - The article was created with what was originally a section for Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). [Soffredo] Journeyman Editor 00:26, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I support a prompt Merge or a Delete. Before too much work so done and wasted.-Justanonymous (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge: It should be added as a section on the Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado) article, at least for now. As aforementioned, Wikipedia is not a memorial. I don't believe there is enough information to create an independent article just yet, but information will be added as the story progresses. If something that makes this shooting notable by itself surfaces, or the section becomes long enough, then this article could possibly be recreated, but for now, this event is too new and there aren't currently enough details. TCMemoire (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). No murder victims, not notable, WP:NOT#NEWS. WWGB (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). Only the perpetrator was killed- he shot himself with his shotgun. One female 15-year-old student is critically wounded and in trauma surgery- it is not clear whether she will live, or not- a second injured student was treated for a minor gunshot wound at the hospital and released. It is indisputable that any school shooting- indeed, any loss of life- is tragic and unfortunate, especially for the affected parties, and so I do sympathize with those who disagree. However, Wikipedia's stand-alone articles in the category of school shootings, especially now, unfortunately, that they are seemingly more frequent (or at least make the news more) should be reserved for multi-casualty (and I mean deaths, or at least truly significant injuries) events, or, failing that criteria, those which make wide headlines for well-established reasons (they trigger federal or other noteworthy legislation and/or court cases, or are linked to other newsworthy phenomena). Since for now it appears to be a non-gang small incident, it might have a place within the actual high school's article, and in the lists that Wikipedia keeps of U.S. school shooting incidents- though I could also endorse eventual deletion. 67.184.212.160 (talk) 02:29, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge This event, while some may not view it as being worth having a standalone article, should, at the very least be mentioned on the main page for Arapahoe High School, as it does by now consist a part of the school's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Comwhiz2002 (talk • contribs) 05:00, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or redirect with history - Article should either be kept, or redirected to Arapahoe High School with history. --Jax 0677 (talk) 07:53, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - Since the article doesn't have much, merge it with the school's article. Corn cheese (talk) 12:36, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). This is a notable part of the school's history but not notable enough to stand-alone.--NortyNort (Holla) 12:39, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge as suggested. Note that there is now an article on the shooter, Karl Pierson. I've changed this to a redirect twice & been reverted with an accusation of vandalism by the article creator, & am not going to break the three revert rule for something so trivial.TheLongTone (talk) 12:46, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). WP is not a newspaper. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:13, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado) **and** make sure this page redirects there. People googling for this shooting should be led to the relevant information on the relevant page, even if it's not terribly notable.Oathed (talk) 14:34, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- This entry is more of a sensational, knee-jerk reaction to an event than documenting anything useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.219.4 (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Colorado-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:00, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:00, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into the school article per WP:NOTNEWS. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 16:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into school article and redirect to that section per all of the salient points made above. I agree that the incident should be documented if for no other reason that there have been sufficient shooting incidents in Colorado to justify the existence of Colorado shooting. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:29, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - Really, the only reason this story is gaining so much attention is because it landed on the near-first anniversary of the Newtown massacre. --GeicoHen (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It looks like the precedent that has been set is that each one of these shootings get their own page. I haven't seen any real argument to break that precedent. This story is still being reported on, and details are still coming out. The sheriff has appointed a team, and they're searching the shooters home in order to find out why this happened. A teacher being targeted for murder as part of what was apparently a failed mass-murder plot (as a fire was started with Molotov cocktails) isn't a casual occurrence as some would suggest. As some have noted, this was on the eve of the anniversary of the Newtown massacre, which is an unlikely coincidence, but more importantly the quick response (about 5 min) of the deputies may have prevented this from becoming another Newtown massacre. All the arguments against this article are centered around this incidence not being notable enough. That's a pretty weak argument on 2 counts, first this is being reported on by major news outlets, and second, there appears to still be a lot more to this story that hasn't been uncovered yet.24.14.55.138 (talk) 20:38, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
— 24.14.55.138 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - Ditto with what everybody else has stated. The main reason people perform these stunts is for sensationalism. Why contribute to the spectacle? Besides, it's not like Wikipedia is hiding or deleting the information, just moving it to someplace more appropriate per this situation. The real reasons for these school shootings, people fail or refuse to properly punish or care for their children. In my school days, we were to scared to walk the hallways without permission! --roger (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This has been a major national news story for a couple of days. That's more than enough for me to support keeping it (with Karl Pierson re-directing to the article). Alternatively, merge this article with Colorado shooting and expand Colorado shooting to an article. I'd also like to note that it's too early to delete this article for a lack of content, per Wikipedia:Notability (events)#Don't rush to delete articles. Orser67 (talk) 00:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Deletion of this article, and merge of a summary of the info into the Arapahoe High School article. This apparently disturbed young man shot himself when confronted, and Wikipedia is not a news service with a one-event article on every individual who commits a crime. Also agree with the argument above that Wikipedia need not provide a page for every mentally disturbed person who finds they can gain immortality in the encyclopedia of knowledge by picking up a weapon and attempting something harmful to fellow humans. N2e (talk) 01:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stay: Even though Shooting was a big thing, like the Columbine High School shooting(not far from Arapahoe High) or the one that happen a year ago today(December 14, 2013), it shows that if this happen again, then people can see what they can do in this situation. That was a really good idea for librarian to leave school. See also what happen aftermath. Also people are saying there no victims, I don't know if they have been reading or watching news lately, one is still in critically condition, she can die from this, but do we know that right now. No, so I say stay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.87.110 (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep There seems to be an argument saying that keeping this page will encourage more events. There's no real evidence for that, besides there's no Wikipedia rule that I know of that says they don't document events if they're afraid they might occur again. So that should be ignored as an argument. Also people seem to be ignoring the known fact that this event represents a student targeting a teacher for murder at their school. That is NOT an everyday occurrence. This represents a rare event and shouldn't be ignored or brushed aside as if it is a common occurrence as some would suggest. Also being ignored in the arguments is the fact that this student started a fire at the school, and may have planned a mass-murder event (we still don't really know yet). Additionally the improved response time by the deputes (due to previous travesties) may have been what prevented this from becoming a mass-murder. I find it hard to accept arguments that simply ignore these issues are serious arguments.24.12.6.25 (talk) 09:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
— 24.12.6.25 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 09:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. None of the reasons for deletion given in our deletion policy applies. The amount and duration of coverage in major news media clearly establishes notability.  --Lambiam 11:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:NOTNEWS. As an example of the scanty international coverage of this event, the BBC news website [1] did not cover it.TheLongTone (talk) 11:26, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Err, you might want to check again ... the term "Arapahoe" was not spelled correctly. WWGB (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My typing has always been rubbish. Nevertheless I doubt that this event will create the kind of lasting coverage to make it notable.TheLongTone (talk) 11:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And after the spelling is corrected you find several entries on the BBC website. Likewise for The Guardian, Russia Today, Le Monde, El País, The Times of India, and Asahi Shimbun (search for アラパホ), these just being the international media I checked.  --Lambiam
Which I do not deny: the fact remains that this is an incident that will be largely forgotten in a couple of weeks.TheLongTone (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How could you possibly know that?24.12.6.25 (talk) 00:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado) - Wikipedia requires persistent in addition to significant coverage in reliable sources for a subject to have its article. The event itself, sadly, isn't all that special. Not a high death toll (only the perpetrator died) and not a lot of injury (only 1 injured). This information is clearly better suited for the article on the high school where this shooting took place. I have very little doubt that this event will be forgotten in a few weeks. Michaelzeng7 (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • KeepComment You said it isn't all that special. Is it not that special for a student to show up at school with guns targeting the murder of one of their teachers, and to set fire to their school? I can't think of that happening before, so I'd like to see your sources. Also, you forget that one girl is in critical condition, so we don't know the "death toll" yet. There's no way to predict when this even will "be forgotten", so that argument is not valid.24.12.6.25 (talk) 00:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying that this isn't morally inexcusable. As a human being I detest any and every kind of event like this. However, we shouldn't make this justification for making school shootings rise above all of the other violent acts that happen every day in this world. For Wikipedia, we want to cover the most significant and widely-studied topics. Although it's sad, I'm not convinced this is one of them. The information will still be included in Wikipedia, I'm just proposing we move it to the high school article. Michaelzeng7 (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Arapahoe High School (Centennial, Colorado). Although it is not a world changing event, it is a major event in the history of that school. spiderwing (talk) 18:12, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • KeepComment Is "world changing event" a criteria for admission into Wikipedia? As noted above, this event has been reported on internationally. Would the Arapahoe High School Wiki page mention it as the only internationally reported event in the schools entire history? If so, wouldn't that seem rather odd that there wasn't an independent page? 24.12.6.25 (talk) 00:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. Sadly commonplace in the USA. Analysis in secondary sources is lacking. Abductive (reasoning) 01:17, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Anything that dominates the news cycle like this really should be kept. This event is known nationwide. --Rockstonetalk to me! 02:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  1. The existence or not of this article is not subject to anyone's emotion. The "heartless" comment above is out of line.
  2. The "domination" of the news cycle in the US is not a reason for this article to exist, because there is a whole lot of English speaking world where it is not. This is not US.Wikipedia, it is en.wikipedia. Also the specific policy WP:NOTNEWS that I cited in the nom applies.
  3. Comparing the edits on this school shooting to the Sandy Hook shooting--well, there is no comparison. That article was on fire for a week after the incident. This one, hardly at all. That indicates the lack of general interest, and by extension, this incident's importance.

I would also add that merge would be a very acceptable outcome to the nominator. John from Idegon (talk) 20:59, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • Remarks
  1. I agree with this.
  2. This is not US.Wikipedia but US events are extremely important.
  3. There's less edits because there's less information.

--Rockstonetalk to me! 23:16, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge into high school article. Currently lots of news coverage but not a lot of info, especially to sustain an article. Best course of action is to keep it in the high school article summary-style until it proves to have enough to warrant full article treatment. czar ♔ 05:08, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - This is worth noting in the school's article as it is a verifiable event noted in reliable sources, but as others have said, we are not a newspaper, so far no one as died, only one person was hurt, and people do bad things like this every day. It's cruel, indeed, and it's sad that the victim must endure this, but that doesn't make it encyclopedic. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 14:43, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into school history. --DHeyward (talk) 22:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per many others. This is merely a one victim shooting. These, alas, happen many times a day in the United States. Even school shootings are distressingly common. So much so that my local papers usually cover them around page 30 or so. Resolute 01:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chalk up another vote for merge. --Ixfd64 (talk) 01:06, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep per WP:SENSE as school shootings that result in multiple fatalities and that are covered in international reliable sources are sufficiently "notable" for inclusion here. And as others have said, such incident do indeed spark policy debates among politicians as well. There is really no actual reason for deletion beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is not an actual reason. --24.112.187.219 (talk) 01:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Dahl, Julia. "REPORT: SHOTS FIRED AT ARAPAHOE HS IN CENTENNIAL, COLO". CBS News. Retrieved 13 December 2013.
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