Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cancelled games for Microsoft consoles

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 12:26, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of cancelled games for Microsoft consoles

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List of cancelled games for Microsoft consoles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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The list is not notable, fails WP:LISTN does not have WP:SIGCOV in WP:RS discussing this as a group.   // Timothy :: talk  23:37, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions.   // Timothy :: talk  23:37, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.   // Timothy :: talk  23:37, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Although the intent Gorilli09 did with creating the list is noble, it needs A LOT of refinement as i've said above.... Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • They were still working on it until it got nominated for deletion, then stopped. Many don't want to waste time working on an article if it might be deleted. Dream Focus 00:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - does not meet WP:LISTN. Onel5969 TT me 00:30, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Did any of those making this argument not read the entire thing? There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists. Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability. Dream Focus 00:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you have anything better to do than to try and refute just about every "Delete" vote? Namcokid47 (Contribs) 01:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Definitely needs improvement, but AFD is WP:NOTCLEANUP either. It’s definitely a notable subject that gets coverage in general. The PlayStation equivalent has 300+ sources in it. I’m not sure I follow the argument - are we really to believe that the cross-section of “cancelled video games” and “games on Microsoft consoles” are not something covered in reliable sources? Sergecross73 msg me 16:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from nom on reasons to Delete:This is not a case of a complex and cross-categorization list, it does not cross index multiple categories. If the article was "List of System A games also released on System B you have two categories crossed: A list for System A and another list for System B; you compare them and include (or exclude as the case may be) items based on the criteria established in the lead. This article is a simple list: cancelled games for Microsoft consoles. No other category is to cross indexed with it.
But if it is insisted that this is a cross-categorization list, then the list also fails WP:NOTDIR: "non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations, such as "people from ethnic / cultural / religious group X employed by organization Y" or "restaurants specializing in food type X in city Y". Cross-categories such as these are not considered a sufficient basis for creating an article, unless the intersection of those categories is in some way a culturally significant phenomenon."
Since this is a simple list, the operative part of LISTN is, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list.". Countless AfDs have affirmed a consensus that, barring some extenuating facts particular to a list, for a list to be notable it must be discussed as a group as stated in LISTN.   // Timothy :: talk  16:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Countless AFDs have actually affirmed that if its useful for navigation, combining related things in a list of blue links to articles, then it should be kept. Anyway, as far as being discussed as a group https://www.thegamer.com/cancelled-xbox-games-never-knew-existed/ https://gamerant.com/canceled-xbox-one-games/ https://gamerant.com/xbox-canceled-games-know-existed/ https://www.gamesradar.com/12-cancelled-xbox-360-and-ps3-games-we-actually-miss/ and elsewhere found after a quick search. Dream Focus 17:26, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from nom on reasons to Keep: Even though I'm the nom and favor deletion, on this one I can see the other perspective; Dream Focus made the best argument I can see for keeping based WP:CLN, that WP:AOAL complements multiple categories. Notability commonly falls away here, in favor of utility; it would be Monty Python level silly to try and show many outlines and indexes are notable based on SIGCOV, but they are important parts of WP no one would delete. Sergecross73 mentions List of cancelled games for Sony consoles which has views in the 600s which shows that a list of this kind exists and is useful for some readers which is at the heart of CLN.
Again I do not agree with the above, but it is a valid arguement.   // Timothy :: talk  16:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per DreamFocus. Contra the nom, this passes NOTDIR as an index of articles (and arguably organized by their most defining fact), in addition to WP:LISTPURP and WP:NOTDUP. The "one accepted reason" described at LISTN doesn't contribute anything relevant or helpful here, though "canceled games" are indisputably discussed as a group and it makes sense to subdivide them by platform. postdlf (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fully cancelled video games that 1) were notable and 2) never made it to release because they were reported to be cancelled should be documented. But this list, as well as the PlayStation and other similar lists that I see, have the problem of a major point of original research on presume that because a game was never released for a given platform means it was cancelled. Little of the sourcing on the other lists are sourcing the cancellation but simply that the game was announced for said platform and that was it, and then the presumption that since enough time has passed, the game must be cancelled. This may be okay for some platforms but not all, and is poor original research to building these lists. The categories serve the matter better as long as the information is documented about cancellation. --Masem (t) 16:53, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there anything listed that you have clicked on and not found the word "cancelled" in the article for these games? If if the information can be in their articles, then it can be in the category and in this list article as well. Dream Focus 00:44, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconded. Whether some entries may not verifiably belong is a cleanup issue, not an argument against the very idea of the list. Particularly since Masem ended with an endorsement of categorizing the exact same factual claim that a game was canceled for a particular platform. The format by which information is presented does not change the verifiability of that information. postdlf (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that I said "as long as the cancellation can be documented" - eg the sourcing for cancellation must still be there. Many of the entries still appear to be games that are sourced to an announcement but not a news source confirming their cancelation, nor which is stated in the article proper, and only the presumption too much time has passed has it been assumed the game must have been cancelled. The premise that most of the entries have on here fails WP:V and encourages original research. --Masem (t) 06:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If the company announces it was canceled then that's fine, don't need a news source to repeat that they told you it was canceled. You can verified it was canceled by the official announcement. Dream Focus 09:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    A press release is fine to source. I'm saying that many games here appear to be presumed cancelled because the game doesn't exist X years after it was announced, with the only sourcing available being the announcement and no conclusive statement from the dev or pub that it was cancelled. That's original research, even though Occum's Razor says that's also likely true. We should still not be making that presumption. --Masem (t) 19:44, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The fact that they have to be merged together into a single "Voltron" article for Microsoft "consoles" shows its non-notability. It's an unencyclopedic cross-categorization of all Microsoft consoles + cancelled games. Almost no RS discusses cancelled Xbox games as a group, instead going by system.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 10:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    So split it into three articles then? Dream Focus 15:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: The scope is too broad and the entries barely have any relations to each other (other than being cancelled). "Microsoft consoles" are also excessively broad. If this is a list about first-party cancellations, or if it just focuses on any one of these consoles (e.g. List of cancelled Xbox 360 games), then that may work a bit better. OceanHok (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete While I can understand why the keep votes are cast, in my opinion, this list does not meet WP:LISTN '"One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list."' a news search {"cancelled games for Microsoft consoles" -wikipedia} returns zero hits. While this in it's self does not show a failure of notability, I think it shows the existing delete votes have a stronger standing then the existing keep votes Jeepday (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's "one accepted reason". Keep reading, it list another is for navigational purposes. And If you search for "canceled" and "xbox" you get results, I posting several in the discussion above already. Dream Focus 15:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The article needs work and expansion but the underlying idea seems fine to me. As Dream Focus says, this is a valid navigational list; while the subject is also covered by categories, laying it out in in an article gives pertinent information (year and publisher) upfront, and the use of sortable tables can be a boon— it would hardly be outlandish for a person to want to see the list chronologically rather than alphabetically, or group cancelled titles by publisher. I was prepared to suggest a split by console when I first saw this AfD, but the page and it currently stands is small enough that that would seem excessive; perhaps in the future, if the page gets longer. — Kawnhr (talk) 19:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Per WP:LISTN, "Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability." WP:LISTPURP in turn states that lists may exist to serve an informational or navigational purpose. Edge3 (talk) 23:12, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just added in List_of_cancelled_games_for_Microsoft_consoles#Xbox One after looking through all those things in the category and finding which ones were not just a canceled port, but a game that was not released anywhere but said to be developed for that console, be it by Microsoft Studios or others. Dream Focus 09:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 16:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@TarkusAB:I mean, the sourcing part that you mentioned is what i did exactly for Genesis, N-Gage, Lynx, Jaguar, 3DO and X68000 (with the Genesis one being the most grueling i've done as of date) so, you ain't wrong in that sense... Roberth Martinez (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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