Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of African-American neighborhoods (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep as consensus was it meets WP:NLIST. Some work is needed to clarify what it should include, but WP:DINC. (non-admin closure) Kj cheetham (talk) 21:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

List of African-American neighborhoods

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• Articles for deletion/List of African-American neighborhoods
• Articles for deletion/List of African-American neighborhoods (2nd nomination)

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List of African-American neighborhoods (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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The list is not based on any similar lists published in WP:SECONDARY sources, and is thus a violation of WP:SYNTH with regard to the scanty citations, none of which talk about African-American neighborhoods in the US in general, just such neighborhoods in one metropolitan area or in one state. The unreferenced parts of the article are a violation of WP:NOR. The whole thing is unsalvageable in my opinion. Binksternet (talk) 15:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups and United States of America. Binksternet (talk) 15:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - I think it's clearly a notable subject for a list, but We have List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_with_large_African-American_populations and List_of_U.S._communities_with_African-American_majority_populations_in_2000 which seem to be better sourced and cover the same ground. JeffUK (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  • Merge all three. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  I wouldn't merge them so hastily; I think they server different purposes. One is large populations, and one is large as a proportion. Ovinus (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• Keep. Seems like a notable topic based on the following books:

1. Peck, R., Wilson, J., Peck, R., Wilson, J. (2008). St. Petersburg's Historic African American Neighborhoods: Community, Culture, and Connection. United States: History Press.
2. Wiese, A., Wiese, A. (2009). Places of Their Own: African American Suburbanization in the Twentieth Century. Germany: University of Chicago Press.
3. Martinez, C., Martinez, C. (2016). The Neighborhood Has Its Own Rules: Latinos and African Americans in South Los Angeles. United States: NYU Press.

And these academic papers:

1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0743554895101007
2. https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/env.2008.0509

There are plenty more, but I don't want to bludgeon, I assume this is enough to demonstrate notability. I don't understand the point about secondary here, nobody is a neighbourhood, so I see every source as secondary. Unless we're saying that people can't write about their own place of residence, in which case we'd need to discard most history books. CT55555 (talk) 18:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• Keep. Clearly notable topic per CT and WP:NLIST. This does, however, need a lot of cleanup; we might want to consult WP:LSC and limit inclusions severely. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 19:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
  • My concern is that by 'limiting inclusions severely' we end up with List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_with_large_African-American_populations or List_of_U.S._communities_with_African-American_majority_populations_in_2000 which we have already, so it seems a waste of time to keep all 3. JeffUK (talk) 22:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I want to suggest limiting the list to neighborhoods in cities over X population, but that's probably outside the notability scope of this discussion. Notability first, duplication later. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 03:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

• Delete. Many of these neighborhoods are unsourced and are just low income ghettos. Most Black people have moved out of these neighborhoods. Many black people are now moving to white neighborhoods and white suburbs in the US. This is just a list of ghettos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.233.153.158 (talk) 04:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Delete There are no clear inclusion criteiria. I found one one place on this list that as of our most recent data had a population that was less than 12% African-American. The inclusion criteria is indiscriminate, especially when we consider changes over time, and listing "neighborhoods" at a national scale is just plain excessive. A list like this may be justified for articles on cities or metropolitan areas, but throwing together a list for the whole US just does not make sense. Especially when there are no clear inclusion criteria.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:12, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

• Keep This is clearly a notable subject. Questions about criteria for inclusion on a list aren't a reason to delete the list. They're a reason to improve the list. valereee (talk) 17:14, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. valereee (talk) 21:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. valereee (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Delete unless better inclusion criteria can be thought of, and I cannot think of one. By restricting to population, we'd get List of U.S. communities with African-American majority populations in 2000 (which is definitely closer to qualifying for WP:NLIST—I'd vote keep on that one because it has clear inclusion criteria). There are so many neighborhoods we could consider, some of profound significance to African American history, and others not nearly as important. What additional information does this article bring compared to that list article by population? Significant communities belong in African-American history's child articles, where they can be presented in suitable context. Less significant communities belong to the list article by population. I agree that the topic is notable, and CT55555's sources would work excellently in the articles I just mentioned, but the topic isn't notable in a way which suits a standalone list—at least one of any utility. Ovinus (talk) 23:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• Keep - clearly a notable topic with encyclopedic value. It meets GNG based on the sources found by CT55555, and also meets WP:NLIST. Netherzone (talk) 00:15, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
• Keep: Notable topic, well-sourced. Might need some cleanup, but I see no compelling reason to delete.A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 01:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
• Keep African-American neighborhood exist. This is a real thing, sources exist proving it. Dream Focus 04:14, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  I wholeheartedly agree that there should be a list of African American neighborhoods in the US. but there needs to be some better inclusion criteria that do not simply make the other two lists given above redundant. I don't think we should default to keeping the article unless something concrete is found; otherwise, we're just duplicating articles. Ovinus (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• Keep with updated inclusion criteria and format. Proposed inclusion criteria:

• Recognition as an African American neighborhood or community according to a reliable source
• Neighborhood recognized for its cultural significance (current or historical) to African Americans, according to a reliable source

In other words, it would be less of a population-driven list (since population-based lists are already covered elsewhere); instead, it's more of a cultural one. Any neighborhood not specifically mentioned by a reliable source would not be listed, but it could definitely include otherwise "non-notable" neighborhoods that do not or will never have their own Wikipedia pages. In terms of the list format, I think it would be more useful if each bulletpoint was followed by, or framed by, some text explaining its significance and/or providing context. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:17, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

• Keep. Passes WP:LISTN with WP:SIGCOV in multiple independent reliable sources that discusses this topic directly and in detail as a group. Editorial deficiencies in the list can easily be improved by working on the list from those sources. Wikipedia:AFDISNTCLEANUP.4meter4 (talk) 15:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.