Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami on the video game industry

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.

There have been many points of contention in this debate. A summary of each is provided below:

  • WP:GNG: Many sources provided; satisfies the four basic criteria, though the fifth (significant coverage in independent reliable sources is only a presumption of notability) is what is at stake.
  • WP:UNDUE: Not a valid reason for deletion, as it governs sections in a larger article, not stand-alone articles. The arguments given to this end sound a lot like WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST and WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
  • WP:NOTNEWS/WP:EVENT: The long-term impact of these effects on the VG industry has been called into question. Although a few experts have speculated on long-term implications, it is not enough to establish the long-term viability of the topic. According to WP:EFFECT, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." Consequently, there is no consensus on this point.
  • WP:SYNTH: There is a dearth of sources addressing the topic as a whole; the MSNBC source is the only one presented in this AfD that appears to do so. No consensus here.

Overall, despite a large numerical majority to keep, the "keep" side has not fully addressed the issues raised by the "delete" side. Hence the result.

Note that there was substantial support for a selective merge into Economic impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami if/when it is created. This option may be discussed on the talk page.

King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:10, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami on the video game industry

[edit]
Impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami on the video game industry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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The earthquake is having an impact on all sorts of industries. Giving undue attention to the video game industry is not a neutral point of view. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC) Colonel Warden (talk) 23:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - First, you did this way wrong. You nominated the talkpage for deletion. I think someone who nominated so many articles for deletion would not have made this mistake. Secondly, we were having a merge discussion on the talkpage of the article, so it is somewhat disruptive to cut off that discussion and start a new one. Thirdly, there are plenty of sources covering this, and it meets notability requirements. Just because WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST doesn't mean this shouldn't. Blake (Talk·Edits) 23:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Am I to understand that I am obligated to not make this article if other editors have failed to make articles for their respective industries? All content is verified by reliable sources, and fulfills the notability criteria. I also must strongly criticize the fact that you are proposing the deletion of legitimate content instead of contributing to the discussion of whether to merge into a general entertainment industry impact article or an economic impact article. And I must further point out that efforts have been made to make articles about other industries. Additionally, NPOV has nothing to do with the existence of articles. The nutshell description: "This page in a nutshell: Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias." The article is from a neutral point of view, it represents all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias. We are not giving our own personal POVs in this article. All content is verified and focuses on the reliable sources' POV and determination of notability. If we had no articles on PlayStation 2 games and many on Wii games, would that be undue weight? No, it would just mean that editors have no taken the initiative to cover other aspects. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article cannot be considered in isolation as it is a fork of the main article about the earthquake. WP:UNDUE states "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.". The main article says nothing at all about the impact on the videogames industry. If that is the correct proportion of significance then it is disproportionate to have a whole article about this minor detail. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - In addition to the above arguments, it seems that the nominator has gotten the WP policy on this wrong. There is not a risk of WP:UNDUE to all of Wikipidia because some articles exist and others do not. The criterium should be notability of the subject. In my mind, this subject has been covered extensively by many well reputed and major RSs, and it's notability is established.LedRush (talk) 23:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: Perhaps the paragraph detailing all the held back titles due to the crisis could be made into a list, but there's a plenitude of sources and significant data. The claims for deletion are somewhat refuted by the "See also:" article linked at the bottom of this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twentysixpurple (talk • contribs) 04:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge: As per my discussion in the talk page, I feel that this article is not really necessary. Simply putting the information on the appropriate pages (for example, game delays on the particular game pages), writing a brief summary in the main article, and including charitable contributions from gaming-related sources in the humanitarian article is my stance on it. The information should be included on Wikipedia, I just don't think it should be in this article. It reads less like an encyclopedic article (which should be written based on long-term notability and impact) and more as a splash page for WikiNews. In the long term, I could see it being merged into an economic impact article as well, but it feels like this article suffers from recentism and undue weight. There's plenty of coverage, sure, but is it really necessary to have this on its own article and not have the information distributed in more appropriate places? I think not. Dragonmaw (talk) 05:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The information IS on the appropriate pages - the game articles, and this article. The game cancellations are all linked together as a single event, which more than warrants an article. The article has been steadily growing, and shows no indication of stopping. This is also particularly different from your original concerns, where you were concerned with it being in bad taste or being an effort by video game efforts to supposedly make Wikipedia a "video game enthusiast site". - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:06, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I clarified my concerns on the talk page. This is what discussions are for, after all. If you want to get snippy because I happened to elucidate my concerns on "appearing like a video game enthusiast site," then I think you have bigger issues to deal with. As I read and talked things over, I came to a clearer position on the subject. Don't focus so much on original positions. Focus on what people are saying NOW. Otherwise you appear overly pedantic and not really interested in advancing the discussion. Dragonmaw (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no policy about overlapping (i.e. redundant) material being inappropriate. Both the game/company articles and this page can list delays/cancellations/etc. As I've replied on this page elsewhere, UNDUE is not BIAS. Article is NPOV, because it covers its topic (aftermath on video game industry) from a neutral video gaming perspective. Nobody having written an article on other industries or topics is BIAS, but that is not notability criteria. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) Reach Out to the Truth 00:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Reach Out to the Truth 00:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Reach Out to the Truth 00:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge to the relevant articles (such as Economic impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami, which should be created, or delete if it was spun out from those articles in the first place). This is the sort of thing that gives Wikipedia a bad name. The impression given is that people care more about this article than working on the main article about the event. Not that similar, but in the same vein, was Library damage resulting from the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake. That stuck out like a sore thumb at the time, and I nominated it for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Library damage resulting from the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake. I was considering doing the same here. There is more than enough to do on the article about the event, without distracting sub-articles like this. Carcharoth (talk) 06:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC) Agree entirely with what MickMackNee says here. Carcharoth (talk) 05:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was going to make a long reply, but I realized that nothing you say appeals to any guideline or policy. Show me one thing in your argument that isn't based on emotional reaction or censoring controversial articles. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, this article is not controversial. Just ill-judged and poorly timed. It is, as the nominator pointed out, an undue focus on a small area of this disaster. When the 'economic impact' article is created, this article will likely be merged there. Wikipedia is not, contrary to what some people think, edited by policy diktat. It is edited by users who exercise judgment about what to include when and where, and who sometimes disagree over those instances of what is known as editorial judgment. It is not, I must emphasise again, necessary to justify everything with a Wikipedia policy or guideline. Sometimes common sense is enough. Carcharoth (talk) 07:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC) PS. Your signature is rather long.[reply]
        • Why will it likely be merged there? And why is your argument so haphazardly flipflopping? You go from claiming that it will give Wikipedia a bad impression to using the patently inane argument that giving such focus to this subject is distracting (what does that even mean? Is the main article screeching to a halt due to this article?) to "it's common sense". Can you tell me what this article has to fulfill? Let's look at the list...
#Fulfills WP:V
  1. Fulfills [{WP:N]]
  2. Fulfills WP:OR
Care to tell me what we have to fulfill yet?
Overall, I'm questioning why a quite large article was brought to deletion based on a misinterpretation of policies and guidelines. It is entirely inappropriate for this to be discussed here. If we're going to mention undue weight, we'll also mention the undue weight that such a large article would create if it were merged. Fact of the matter is that people have said "give it time to grow and expand and if nothing comes of it, then we can merge", and the answer became "nope". Always inspiring to see the response in this kind of community to be completely and utterly anti-communal. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The policy which is being violated here is WP:NPOV which is a core policy. As explained above, this states "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance". So, it is not enough that content be verifiable; it must be proportionate too. When one browses general news coverage for effects of the earthquake, the industries that show up include: insurance; forex; commodities, electronics, components, automobile, travel and nuclear. Videogames do not appear that I've seen. Your efforts seem to be based upon your personal interest in this aspect and, by seeking out and cherry-picking news items related to this interest, you create the appearance of an effect which the world does not recognise as significant. This has the nature of improper synthesis. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Other stuff exists (essay, yes): "Delete We do not have an article on y, so we should not have an article on this. –GetRidOfIt! 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)" Looks remarkably similar to your argument. Did I write any references included? Nope. You are clearly lacking in ANY understanding of WP:NPOV, which seeks to keep editors' POVs, not an "unbalanced coverage of a subject". I would be lying if I said that the truthfulness and notability of this article wasn't blatantly demonstrated in the dozens upon dozens of reliable sources that cover the impact on the video game industry in depth. I created it because other, unaffiliated parties discussed it. And yes, I created it because of a personal interest in a subject. To reiterate how utterly inane your argument is, if there is a disproportionate number of articles of Wii games versus PS3 games, what is the appropriate action? Explain to me why the appropriate action is to delete content, not make content to make the coverage more broad. I'm sorry that people into automobiles and people into electronics didn't have the initiative to make the respective articles for their hobbies. I do not take responsibility for them our their hobby, and a demonstratively notable article does not, either. And I recommend you actually learn what Synthesis entails - it is the act of taking two sources and coming to a personal deduction that, even though it may be very probable or even true, is not covered in the two sources. This is looking at many reliable sources covering the subject in non-trivial detail - AOL, MSNBC, Wired, Kotaku, IGN, GameSpy, Shacknews, The Telegraph, etc. all cover it in significant detail. Oh, by the way, you forgot to put citation needed next to your comment of what people see as important sectors affected. Your personal opinion is trumped by the fact that reliable sources DO think that the impact on the industry is significant - MSNBC even did an article detailing many different impacts of the industry in one. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There is nothing wrong with the article, it passes any policy or guideline you care to throw at it. The delete argument is based purely on emotion; about it being too soon or showing WP in a bad light. The original nomination based on NPOV is wrong. NPOV doesn't apply to the article in comparison to other articles; just because similar articles haven't been created. If its deleted on that basis, it will effectively be saying that no article can be created on WP unless you have created articles covering every other aspect of an event or occurrence. - X201 (talk) 09:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I saw the the article earlier today and I was like "well isn't this a bit too specific?". Then I read the article and saw it was very well sourced, and far from WP:TRIVIA. It's not like the Japanese videogame industry is small, and we do have similar articles on things like List of audiovisual entertainment affected by the September 11 attacks which is very similar to this one. Maybe the article can be enlarged to the "japanese entertainment industry" in general, but that's another debate. Hence resounding keep. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 09:22, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the article is a synthesis of sources talking about disparate topics, and does not assert significance. The first sentence is marked with {{citation needed}}; afaics, none of the sources used support the proposition of this article. Show me some in-depth independent media that is writing about this niche topic. Not the industry talking about itself. Someone outside the industry who has seen this as a significant aspect. Even that would only justify a mention in the main article. To justify a full article about this, you would need a chapter in a book. The video game industry contributed, and they were affected. That does not distinguish them from all the other major industries in Japan. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • [1] - literally two seconds of work to find this link in the very article you were reading. This is written by someone outside the industry. So is the link to The Telegraph, and the link to Wired. And I love your arbitrary "chapter of a book" threshold. Since no book covers the tsunami at all, that's pretty much a call to delete all articles, wouldn't you agree? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is a blog, written by people inside the industry. Please take the time to understand my rationale before you post comments which demonstrate my point. John Vandenberg (chat) 10:07, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Have fun demonstrating to me that the simple nature of being a blog makes it an inappropriate source. Are you arguing that MSNBC does not have proper editorial oversight of the content it posts? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Blogs are not suitable sources to demonstrate notability. John Vandenberg (chat) 12:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • You completely misread, willfully or not, the intent of his comment. The MSNBC blog you are referencing is a videogame enthusiast blog, not a general-interest one (such as a newspaper). Winda Benedetti, it should be noted, has an online resume that indicates her primarily videogame enthusiast focus. As far as I can tell in your linked articles, you do not source a single non-enthusiast publication. You need to make the distinction between blogs and their owners. For example, Joystiq is run by AOL's Weblogs Inc. sub-division, but it is not AOL. Likewise, the Wired post leads to a sub-blog, as does the MSNBC post. This seems to be Vandenberg's main issue with the article: it sources entirely enthusiast press and not generally notable publications. Dragonmaw (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • You know, it's not exactly helping you to link to a policy that doesn't mention blogs at all. You know what'd be really cool? If we linked to something that did mention blogs. Oh, I know: WP:V. "Several newspapers host columns that they call blogs. These are acceptable as sources, so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control." Please do not comment on something that you clearly have absolutely no understanding of.
              • I feel confident enough to note that videogame enthusiast press is generally not editorially controlled by their parent companies. The Huffington Post (and AOL in general) does not determine the editorial content of Joystiq. The managing editors of Joystiq do. So please do not comment on something that you yourself clearly have no understanding of. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'll admit that most of the coverage of this is by enthusiasts. I will ask you why I am obligated, however, to demonstrate that she is acting with objectivity and not writing this article solely from her enthusiasm. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 12:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • You're being asked to demonstrate that what she (and all the other sourced articles) is writing about is generally notable enough to warrant inclusion as a separate article, rather than simply rolling the information into other articles. Since there's no sources on your page from appropriate publications given the topic (namely, general or business-oriented publications), there's not a whole lot of reason to keep this article. If you mind finding some notable sources discussing the long-term impact of the earthquake on the gaming industry, I'll change my tune to a Keep. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) Focusing on video gaming industry and being from video game industry are two different things. MSNBC is not some biased blog that says other sectors are not important. The sources are independent. There are multiple sources. The coverage is definitely not trivial. Everything the GNG needs. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per John Vandenberg, who has very concisely and logically explained why this article should not exist, precisely that there is no independent coverage of this topic. Goodvac (talk) 10:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's shocking how much blatant bias against the industry has been expressed in this discussion. Particularly showing is John Vandenberg arguing that because someone has expertise in the industry, they are not an independent source. It's no coincidence that we do not see this logic applied to films, electronics, or automobiles. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. To sum up the article: 1) Stocks fell - it's unclear what the long term impact will be on the video game industry. 2) A few games have been delayed or cancelled. 3) Companies are fundraising. Taking these in turn: 1) Lots of companies stocks fell, and it isn't clear what will happen. The bigger picture in this, and what is being reported in the press, has a lot more to do with the currency than anything specifically video game related. 2) Lots of different events and initiatives have been put back or cancelled. This is not video game specific in any way. 3) Lots of different businesses and organisations are fundraising. There is nothing specific about this industry to set apart it's efforts. To summarise - the earthquake has massively affected a lot of people and businesses, but there is nothing unique about its affects on the video game industry. This article falls afoul of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENT. Quantpole (talk) 11:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again, it's pretty egregious how poorly most proponents of deletion/merging have responded to even the slightest notion of waiting to see how the article turns out. There's no real way to demonstrate that it does not apply to WP:RECENT if it is immediately deleted with no opportunity to improve. The fact of the matter is that you seem to be looking far outside what the actual threshold is - coverage by a reliable source, which has been demonstrated with dozens of reliable sources giving extensive, non-trivial coverage. The non-gaming oriented sources do not write these articles with the intention of covering them as part of the wider economic crisis - they cover them as exclusive articles on the impact on video games and nothing else. The fact of the matter is that, not being a print encyclopedia, there is no reason to be rushing to deleting legitimate content, a rush that is very clearly occurring. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 11:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Likewise, why was there a rush to create a mostly superfluous article that has tenuous at best long-term merits? Nobody is suggesting that the content be outright deleted, just that the article itself is unnecessary and runs afoul of several principles. Plus, it looks bad and reflects poorly on Wikipedia, and in the end, people make judgement calls as to whether or not an article is appropriate. A number of people (myself included) think that this article is both logically unnecessary and emotionally inappropriate, and a number of others (yourself included) think otherwise. Dragonmaw (talk) 12:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I and several other editors have already explained to you that "bad taste" is not only entirely based on personal point of view, but completely inapplicable to whether something should be deleted, merged, etc. There was no rush in making a so-called superfluous article. The content had reached a certain level of notability and, as such, was split out from the userspace. To assume that just because gaming journalists are enthusiastic of what they cover that what they cover should be scrutinized is absurd. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 12:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • You and several other editors also apparently fail to account for public perception as well. Even if this article didn't have a number of flaws (notably the ones listed here from those calling for deletion/merger), it would still be inappropriate and still a candidate for deletion otherwise. Why? Because people are inherently emotional beings and this article runs afoul of plenty of emotions. I've seen (and have contributed to) threads discussing how emotionally inappropriate the article is. Sources are not everything. That being said, the point of the article is the impact of the earthquake on the gaming industry. For one, we've seen only tentative speculation from random sources as to the long-term impact, and short term impact is simply not notable, as per WP:NOTNEWS. To quote: Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. For two, the impact has not been noted by any sources except for enthusiast press. If it is affecting the business, where are the prominent business publications? This is such a narrowly focused topic and you seem to simply be gathering news sources for purposes of synthesis. The implication is that the earthquake will have a long-term effect, and that we should simply "wait and see" on the article. This is a disingenuous argument that aims to avoid deletion on the grounds of this not being an appropriately encyclopedic article, specifically that this article has zero sourced articles remarking on the enduring notability of the earthquake's effect on media. At least in List of audiovisual entertainment affected by the September 11 attacks there is the notability that the world trade centers no longer exist. There's nothing like that here. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • On the contrary Dragonmaw, the editors that start their comments with "Delete" are in fact calling for "outright deletion".
          Regardless, the "emotionally inappropriate" aspect of this is irrelevant to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. We can go back and forth on what is emotionally appropriate, but I think it best to keep such comments out of this discussion. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
          • I don't see why. But regardless, I don't see people calling for the content of the article (the delay notifications and charity contributions) to be deleted, just the article itself. Hence the position that they are aiming for said content to be merged into other areas rather than put into a frankly embarrassing article. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) There is nothing specific to set Sand Cat or Jungle Cat from other Felis either. It does not mean they don't meet GNG. Other industries may or may not be affected. They may be more affected, they may be less afected. But that is not a WP:DEL argument. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • If this was such a notable topic, then there would be some sources actually talking about the effect on the video game industry holistically. As it stands we have a variety of sources reporting on different companies and different effects but none (as far as I can see) talking about this topic as a whole. The article is synthesis of reporting on different things to create a topic. I was highlighting that it is not unique to the video game industry to show that it is not an individual topic. I could well see an article on "Economic impact of the 2011 earthquake" as that is a topic which have received significant coverage. Some of the info in this article could be relevant to Humanitarian response to the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami. Quantpole (talk) 13:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • To be specific, it seems to be a synthesis of random reports that aims to create an impression of long-term impact without any sourced publications actually speculating on said long-term impact. It's a collection of news to advance a position, basically. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Highly relevant article, the fact that videogames showing natural disasters delayed their release because of the earthquake is worthy of an article alone. The rest of the article is extremely well researched. I can only assume people have said "delete" without reading it, or as a kneejerk reaction believing that it's in poor taste to write about the impact on the videogames industry when the impact on real people is so much more important. But the fact that it's more important, does not mean that an article on the impact on a particular type of business is not worthy of an article also. It is. And that is why I believe this is definitely a "keep", as would an article on the earthquake and tsunami's impact on the financial sector, tourism sector, etc etc. --Tris2000 (talk) 12:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I suspect that there are a number of emotions involved in this overall discussion, so I'll try to stick to policy.
    A number of editors have stated that the coverage does not meet thresholds, specifically with the coverage outside the video game industry. WP:V does not state that we cannot use the industry experts to discuss the industry. Even then, we have industry's journalist talking about the industry's producers. For example, MCV, Shacknews, and Edge.
    That being said, the topic has received coverage outside gaming publications: NY Times about the N3DS, ANN about the relief efforts of the VG industry among others, TIME about the delays and server shutdowns, AOL News about the relief efforts, The Escapist about the relief efforts, Wired about the relief efforts, The Telegraph about the Motorstorm release and industry relief efforts, and USA Today about the condition of the gaming employees.
    In regard to the neutrality of the article, I think the comments about WP:NPOV are misconstruing the intent of the policy, which is mainly about presenting controversial viewpoints in a balanced manner. While I understand that the policy extends beyond that, I think this article still complies with it. The scope of the article is clearly defined and presents the relevant information without bias. The fact that other articles about the economic impact don't yet exist is no fault of the article. The information is out there, and I'm sure similar articles will be written later. WP:VG members were just the first to take the initiative. If you take a look at our Featured and Good article output, that may not surprise you.
    Regardless of all that, per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ#Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete, "there is usually no need to immediately delete text than can instead be rewritten as necessary over time."
    While the main earthquake article probably doesn't mention anything about the video game industry, I assure you that it will was the article is stable. The number of third-party articles that covered the gaming industry's response is too great to ignore. I for one always leave current event articles to those more adept at dealing with such liquid articles. And I suspect that others share that view.
    In closing, I want to say that I think this AFD is premature. I concede that this article might have been created prematurely, but it quickly morphed into a quality article. Regardless of the number of voices hear, I hope that the closing admin sees the timing and the type of arguments here and realizes that this should be discussed at a later time. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    • Let's dissect the linked articles a bit. None of them certainly suppose a viewpoint that the earthquake has any long-term impact. Some even state that it has little short-term impact (no 3DS delays). Out of all the sourced articles, the Wired, Telegraph, TIME, USA Today, and NY Times blogs are all gaming enthusiast sub blogs that do not remark whatsoever on the long-term impact of the quake. They are simply reporting gaming news, as that's what they do. I don't know why you listed The Escapist as an outsider source, as it is an explicitly gaming-focused source. Did you mean to put something else there? The AOL News and ANN articles are the only two outsider publications to give it any notice, but even then they are merely stating "some charity was given." Why would this deserve a separate article and not inclusion in the humanitarian response article? I can think of no particular reason. It's news and notable, but not notable enough to warrant a separate article. Could easily be rolled into the humanitarian aid one. Dragonmaw (talk) 19:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: the nominator's rationale and most of the delete !votes seem to revolve around WP:WAX, which is laughable, and WP:UNDUE, which is misconstrued and taken out of the intent of the guideline (UNDUE refers to a POV being given excessive coverage on a specific article compared to other POVs, so citing it to justify deleting a spin-off article is just silly). I think people are looking at it too much from the perspective of the quakes and not enough from the perspective of the longer-reaching impacts it has been having. While some think it trivial to look at the video game industry so closely in light of the humanitarian aspects, that is POV in and of itself (and it's worth noting that this isn't a zero-sum game, editors aren't necessarily sacrificing work on the main articles to contribute to this one). While it is true that nearly every industry in Japan was affected, I don't think that most of them had the same impact on an individual global industry. Japan accounts for a very large portion of the global video game industry and market... I might even guess it to be almost half; this makes it a very significant event in the history of video gaming. While there may be a compelling argument that it would outscope the more broad economic impacts, there is not yet an article on that; a merger discussion would be the appropriate venue if it ever is created, and deletion now would simply throw away all of that content and attribution. If people think it is in poor taste to write about the effects of video gaming while people are suffering, they can work on the other articles (and maybe write on the other economic impacts instead of bitching about what was already written); this article is well-written and well-sourced, and WP:VG's work should be an example of how other WikiPrpjects can write about this disaster. bahamut0013wordsdeeds 15:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for the same reasons as bahamut0013 explains above. Bondegezou (talk) 15:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - It is astounding that this much work and quality went into such a narrow cul de sac before a proper Economic impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami was created — with this material assigned its proper place in that. Its pretty sad if you think about it much. Does it mean that this generation of Wikipedians is unable to see past the game console in their living room? That's my take. This article should stand for now, but it's shameful and an absolute travesty that this material precedes serious material on the impact of the catastrope upon the Japanese economy as a whole. Carrite (talk) 16:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Shameful in your opinion. It's not yours to judge what other people do, because you are merely assuming what other people are like before you've actually met them. There's more to it than "ignorance of a humanitarian disaster". We are aware that a terrible disaster has occurred, and that human lives have been lost. However, this appeal to emotion does not mean that a topic relating to videogames that have a relation to the earthquake incident is definitely a "shameful" thing to write about in Wikipedia. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • [Edit Conflict]Your [Carrite's] response is as insulting as it is ignorant. I would ask you to redact your comments, but your reliance on tired language used to demonize video gamers leads me to believe that your prejudice precludes reasoned discourse on this issue. That you would comment to merely hurl prejudiced insults on follow wikipedians is the real shame here.LedRush (talk) 16:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd like to echo some of Benlisquare's comments. No one involved in the article's creation and writing believes that the impact on the gaming industry overshadows the disaster's more broad impacts. To characterize the edits as such is crossing a line, in my opinion. WP:VG members are simply doing what we do best: write about video game topics. It's not the WP:VG members' fault that other projects either don't have the workforce or article experience to write something similar. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    • This is a cheap shot, and I apologise in advance, but: "It's shameful and an absolute travesty" that you chose to come here and berate your fellow Wikipedians and their article, rather than spend your time creating the article that you moan doesn't exist. I'll turn your comment around and ask you a question. Why haven't you created the economic impact article? There are plenty of articles and news stories to base it on. I initially thought that your comment was a troll, but no, you really do hold the biased opinion that Video Games - and by extension every member of WP:VG - are pathetic and shouldn't be part of Wikipedia.- X201 (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Members of WikiProject Video games worked together to write an article about the disaster's effect on the video game industry. It's what they do, write articles about video games and related topics. It's already been stated that the article's authors aren't familiar enough other topic areas to write articles about other effects of the disaster. But if someone more qualified wants to do so, by all means go ahead. Reach Out to the Truth 16:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: There is nothing immediately wrong with the article in regards to Wikipedia policy (that is, WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, et cetera... and if there really are problems, they can easily be fixed), and I suspect that the opposition to the article is based on a bias forming from opinions and emotions in relation to the earthquake disaster incident. Appeal to emotion has no place on Wikipedia, in my opinion; an article is notable and verifiable, regardless of current events. Not to be arguing that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but List of audiovisual entertainment affected by the September 11 attacks discusses a topic which, probably controversial, relates to a similar disaster which resulted in many deaths; however, like I said earlier, neither the death toll of 9-11 nor the earthquake should affect the existence of an article on the entertainment industry simply due to the opinion held by some people that such articles are "bad taste". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I have already voted delete. There is a lot of talk about whether the article is in bad taste or not, or violates neutral point of view blah blah. Personally I feel this is the kind of article that is an embarrassment to the entire Wikipedia project, but this is completely irrelevant and I cannot judge the people who created it. The crucial thing is that Wikipedia is not news. The fact that something can be verified from multiple sources does not make it notable and enduring. Stock prices are just today's news. Same goes for video game release dates or whether a server is online or not. Businesses are donating to the relief effort. This is a normal thing for businesses to do in such circumstances. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that this is a subject of enduring notability. Nobody is saying the industry will not recover. The Nikkei index is already up 6% today. Nor is there anything that indicates that there is any negative effect specific to the videogame industry (for an example of specificity, the potential effect of nuclear fallout on agriculture, fishing etc.) Please think about how this article will look in the far future. WP:NOTNEWS 24.69.71.254 (talk) 18:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I came here so sure I was going to !vote delete, but this article does have substantial sourced coverage of the effect of the disaster on this specific industry, so there's definite notability. This is not the right place to discuss a possible expansion of the scope of the article to economic effect of maybe the entertainment industry in general; that should take place on talk pages. Yaksar (let's chat) 18:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. No one can doubt the diligence and good intentions of the author in putting this together, and no one can doubt the sourcing is impeccable, but these facts do not an encyclopedia article make. All this page contains is a series of moves by a disparate array of companies taken because of the earthquake. Nothing ties these actions together other than the common strain of being a reaction to the disaster, so the article contains no thesis, no main idea, and no point. We could probably make five hundred or a thousand or five thousand articles like this for every industry or company affected by any of a bewildering array of disasters over the past decade, but in general we have not done so. Heck, we could probably find enough newspaper stories to create cohesive articles on a dozen or more people who have no notability save for becoming casualties of this disaster, but we do not do that either. That is because this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. It is not the job of wikipedia to keep track of daily stock price fluctuations or company donations; absent any special impact, there is no need. The video game industry was barely affected by the tragedy, and the responses by these companies are not in any way abnormal for giant corporations after an event of this magnitude. Absent these special circumstances, there is undue focus on something incredibly minor in this sweeping disaster. WP:UNDUE does not cover this situation as others have pointed out, but the sentiment that coverage is undue in this case is valid. Indrian (talk) 21:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a fair point, but at this point in its life, I think it would be fair to wait and see what happens. Even if the analysts state that they are not sure what will come of the situation, they give indication of possibilities that are far from unlikely. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) Even though I share the sentiment that the individual facts are rather dispersed; undue (in any form, not just WP:UNDUE) is still not a WP:DEL criteria. GNG is -- "multiple independent reliable sources with significant coverage". ✓ —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • To quote WP:GNG: "Even a large number of news reports that provide no critical analysis of the event is not considered significant coverage." All but a single referenced source in the nominated article lack critical evaluation, and the one that does is merely parroting the words of Michael Pachter. Thus, it actually fails GNG based on the WP:NOTNEWS guideline. It's not just multiple independent sources; you also have to prove that there's is some purpose to the article beyond collecting news. So far there is none, and I'm personally not inclined to "wait and see" something that most likely won't materialize. Dragonmaw (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Parroting entails intentionally repeating what a person said, not coincidentally saying the same thing. The fact that two different sources concur on an issue is demonstrative of the likelihood of it. And the supposed likelihood of information not materializing has no basis or foundation. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • One source. And the source, MSNBC, is simply one journalist parroting (yes, parroting. She is not adding her own comments as she made a news post, not an editorial column) two analysts who have not remarked on the quake in any other source and have differing viewpoints. The article besides the two sentences given to those analysts is simply a collection of news tidbits from around the internet, with the supposition that "it will affect the game industry for months to come" slapped in the intro paragraph. In other words, there is no concurrence. You are reaching, and apparently not even reading your sourced articles all the way through. Dragonmaw (talk) 02:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I believe there isn't enough evidence to prove that this article should be deleted. There are enough sources (and more to come eventually) to make this article relevant. GamerPro64 (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - per above.--Paaerduag (talk) 02:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and allowing for any logical expansion to other entertainment industries. In time, I suspect more can be written on other industries drastically affected by the quake, but the video game industry moves quick and things were already in motion within hours of the quake/tsunami. I have suggested that there's no reason that if more could be added from those industries, that items from Japan's live action and anime/manga industries could be included as well.
    As a comment to those that are saying that the topic as a whole isn't notable because no single source covers it as a whole, that's not how notability works. Topics where there is partial coverage and where grouping makes sense should be grouped to a larger topic like this one; it's clear there's an effect on the video game industry, but its both negative and positive effects. Of course as noted there are sources that affirm the whole of this article as notable, but still, the point stands that without those, this article is still appropriate. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I re-read the 'Donations and assistance' section, and that has the potential to be a useful part of a wider article on donations and assistance efforts following the disaster, but I found it frustrating that it only covered a narrow area. I wanted to know what other donation and relief efforts were taking place. This is a problem if coverage becomes overly narrow like this. There is a reason why it is better to start broad and narrow the focus of a series of articles. If you don't do that, you miss out the bits inbetween and leave readers only half- (or less) informed about the wider context. Currently there is a background section on the disaster, but no contextual background material to set the efforts made by this industry in the wider context of other relief and assistance and fundraising efforts. And that is why the article gives such a bad impression. Imagine, if you will, a whole constellation of possible articles branching out from the main one, and then take a moment to realise what it looks like when a few of the main articles at the 'head' of the article tree have been started or done, and not a lot else except this twig a long way down a mostly undone branch of the tree. The same applies for Library damage resulting from the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake. It has been six years 4.5 years since that article was written, and no-one in that time has fleshed out the surrounding articles that could provide context. The same is likely to happen here. Start with the parent articles first and only split off when each 'level' is in reasonable shape. Carcharoth (talk) 05:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand the concern that there likely should be other articles, covering the economic impact and the relief/charitable efforts in light of the quake that are industry-neutral, or if one article won't cover it within WP:SIZE, based on a broader slice of the industry. No one has created these yet (though I see there is now a humanitarian response, but the level of detail this one goes into compared to the humanitarian response one is too deep w.r.t. to that), and because we're a volunteer project we shouldn't be expect that someone who's primarily interest is in video games to create the broader article themselves. The thing to consider is that it has been only a week. Other economic impacts are only starting to be felt, so how the larger picture will come together may make more sense in time, but that still gives no reason to talk about deleting something with broad, verifiable coverage now from an industry where the effects were reported immediately following the quake. I'd certainly be favor of merging or the like if those larger articles existed now, of course. --MASEM (t) 13:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There is no general GNG satisfying topic here that is supported by any mainstream source. There's a lot of cherry picking, a lot of 2+2 makes 5, a lot of bombardment, and a general over-arching feeling for the average reader of it being a VG industry memorial or tribute piece, but certainly nothing that justifies Wikipedia giving out the rather offensive message to the world that of all the bad effects that this event has had, somehow the gaming industry has been so badly affected, and this has been so widely covered as a general topic (it really hasn't), that it deserves an article. SYN, NEWS, NPOV, RECENT (ok, an essay), take your pick, it breaks them all. There's a reason why editors are advised not to write about subjects they feel passionately about or are overly involved in in real life, and this article a pretty good example of why. While there's been a suggestion this has been a collaborative effort of many editors, in terms of the bulk of the content, I don't see it. MickMacNee (talk) 06:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Events are simply too new to have an accurate view of just what the overall effects are at this time. The "There have been delays of video games that are not related to earthquakes or disasters" line in the article give the impression of very heavy WP:SYN regarding the over all effect of the disaster at this time.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, 2nd choice is to tentatively merge to an article on the economic impact of the Japan earthquake, when that gets created. Otherwise, I think it's a reliably-sourced article on a topic which meets relevant notability standards. I mean, any article on an economic impact is going to consist of a list of stuff that Quantpole mentioned in his "delete" !vote. That being said, I think, when an article on the economic impact is eventually written (IMO it "when" and not "if"), effects on the video game industry can fit nicely into said article. –MuZemike 21:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and expand to cover related industries.(But I see this as a possibly reasonable topic on its own, as the industry is specially important to Japan). Possibly better combined with closely related articles to avoid repeating common background, , but that can be discussed when there are others to combine it with, but it would be lost if upmerged into any existing article. DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The invocation of UNDUE here amounts to no more than IDONTLIKE. Allow me to elucidate. In a set of articles, each about the effect of the earthquake on specific industries, would the gaming industry be out of place, and if so, why? Assuming that this article was written just before the last of that set of articles, would it be wrong that this one was written earlier, and if so, why? Anarchangel (talk) 00:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Because there has been no significant coverage of an industry wide impact in reliable sources. All this article does basically is list a few stock price fluctuations, a few product delays/cancellations, and a few corporate donations and vaguely link them through the common thread of being earthquake related. To your questions, a challenge: find me significant coverage in reliable mainstream sources of an impact on the video game industry. Not coverage of individual responses, but coverage of the industry as a whole. If you cannot do it, then this article should not exist. Indrian (talk) 00:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then by the same logic we should delete the article on the relief efforts for the quake, because there are no single sources that cover the entirety of the effort in one go.
        Clearly, this is not how notability works. A topic constructed from multiple, closely-related subtopics that all have appropriate sourcing is acceptable as long as there's no inappropriate synthesis going on in constructing that topic. Here, saying that the impact on game releases, specific developers, specific online game aspects, and benefits and charitable efforts from game developers are all part of the "impact on video games" from the quake/tsunami is completely in line with assembly of a larger topic. --MASEM (t) 16:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, there are many notable mainstream sources detailing the overall effort. Not every source mentions everything happening, but many sources have given attention to the concept of a cleanup and recovery effort. No mainstream reliable source has given voice to a concern about a general impact on the game industry. This is not the same thing as saying there is no effect; obviously there is. But this effect has not been significant enough to prompt coverage, which means it lacks notability from a wikipedia standpoint. Indrian (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • But even if there are sources that give a broad overview, we'd still be piece-parting other aspects into it. What is important to remember here is that this (either as VGs alone, or grouped with other industries) can clearly be identified as a spinout from the main topic of the quake/tsunami itself. In such spinouts, notability is partially inferred from the large topic. That is, if we didn't have to worry about size limits for articles, there would be a single article on the quake/tsunami, the impact on the nuclear power plants, the economic impact, including that in the VG industry, the humanity relief efforts, and so forth. It would likely be close to 0.5-1MB when all was said and done, if not larger. In a printed work, completely appropriate. But because we have to consider article size for accessibility and usefulness, breaking it apart along sensible, summarized lines makes sense. This by no mean changes the notability of the overall topic, but we do need to make sure that the spinouts are not too trivial or focused to lose that. In this case, I think most have identified that the only real problem here is that there are other industries affected by the quake/tsunami, but that no one has written articles to that effect, so there's no broader place to put this at the present time. A rough consensus agrees that once these other articles start to appear, fitting this into those would be completely appropriate; whether it covers all industries or a specific sector (like entertainment) is yet to be determined. This is just a realization that the spinout is appropriate and fulfills notability, but that its selection to the VG market may make it just a bit too focused, something that can be fixed once the other articles are created. --MASEM (t) 15:57, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • There will never be other articles for other specific industries, because they are not notable as stand-alone topics, just like this one. If people disagree, why don't they just go and pick another industry and write the article, just to prove the point, instead of simply asserting that this is a topic, while failing to show any convincing evidence in actual sources. Despite what some people have said in here, that is not a task that requires any expert knowledge of the subject matter - if it's notable, any editor should be able to write about it. That's a founding principle of Wikipedia. This is absolutely not the type of spinout which inherits its notability from the parent - such a statement requires a belief that a small overview section would fit nicely in the main article. Well, right now, the parent article is literally the main page - and clearly devoting a section in there to the effects on the VG industry would look like an absurd NPOV violation. Even watered down to 'entertainment industry', it would still be the case. The only notable topic here with any hope of not sticking out like a sore thumb like this article does right now, would be to start with an 'Economic effects' sub-article, whose section in the main article is only getting large now. However, the reason we still only have a few paragraphs on the entire global finanial industry in there as a part of the section, yet we have this entire article on VG complete with over blown Background section, is not down to its own evident notability, or a lack of effort from editors in the Financial Industry project to go to work to show the world of that topic's evident notability, it's down to the complete over-inflation of the notability of this topic, by the very people who are least placed to objectively assess whether they have gone completely over-board here in their enthusiasm to write about what they like, rather than what they can demonstrate to be notable to ordinary readers. Such is this nature of this article, I doubt anyone except VG people have even been able to read it from start to finish - that's not a sign of a proper article at all, and not a notable topic at all. It's exactly the same as when you see the cliched individual Pokemon article, which is 5 times larger than the biography of a rennaissance painter, even though the painter's article is an FA. It kind of makes my point when you realise part of this article talks about rumours that the Pokemon creator was a casualty, and it gleefully updates us that he did infact tweet he was alive. Can people seriously imagine parallel articles about other industries made up of this sort of totally transient detail, as part of a notable topic? It's trivia like that which supports most of this article tbh. I have absolutely no interest in rennaissance painters, but I'm damn sure I could easily read an FA on one here and come away with the sense that I had just read an appropriately sized article on a demonstrably notable topic. I read this article and I come away with the impression that I have just read a memorial / fan piece to the VG industry. MickMacNee (talk) 00:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • Yes, actually, summary style allows for parallel articles, subtopics of a larger article, describing separate aspects of the larger topic, if they cannot easily be combined into a larger article without breaking WP:SIZE. Again, those arguing keep seem very open to a merge to a larger article on broad or larger industry segment economic images. These are not written, and it is not the VG's project job or responsibility to write them, so until they are written, there's nowhere to merge information that other meets every other policy for WP (WP:V, NOR, and NPOV, specifically), certainly not the main article about the quake. Because WP is always a work in progress, this should be considered a placeholder article until those steps occur. --MASEM (t) 05:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                • You're simply flat wrong. This is not a summary spinout or a sub-topic in any way, shape or form. It's an article about the effect on the video games industry, period. That's something that absolutely has to show by itself that it is a notable topic. There's simply no inheritance allowance to be had here at all. This is not a spunout list of episodes, or an expansion of a particle physics article to cover a specific theory in more detail, or a sub-division of a longer 'history of' type article. It asserts a notable topic, but it cannot back it up. And to merge something, first you need to have a target that actually exists. Simply renaming this to 'economic effects' is not a merge, and it doesn't make it any less of a violation. All this talk of it's 'not my job' is pure guff. It's not anybody's job to write VG articles. The only job VG editors have is the same as everybody else - adhere to policy. And NPOV is a core policy, which absolutely, positively, does not sanction 'placeholders'. MickMacNee (talk) 06:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                • The place for placeholder articles like this, that are so far down the (as-yet-unfilled) chain of spin-out articles, is in some subpage draft location (be that a subpage of the article talk page, a subpage of a user's userspace, or a subpage of the video game wikiproject). I agree absolutely that spin-out topics are valid, but the parent articles should (usually) be written first. Carcharoth (talk) 06:58, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                  • I will note that I did caution that I think this article should have covered a wider range of industries (such as the general entertainment industry) before it was created, but we're at a situation where this has been created, it fails no other policy blatantly to call for deletion, and in time, it would be a completely approach section or stand-alone part of a tree of articles on the economic impact of the quake/tsunami. If those articles existed, no one would be calling for deletion, but we're here now, and it makes little sense to call for it here as long as the editors involved are completely aware of how the other articles develop and merge or match the progression there. There is no question those other articles can be written, but someone has to do that. --MASEM (t) 18:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                    • You're asserting as indisputable fact things that others have completely rejected in policy and fact. Instead of doing that, you need to first decide whether this is a notable topic in it's own right, and defend it on that basis, at which point the existence or absence of other articles becomes irrelevant, or choose the other path, and argue that while it might not be notable in its own right, it's a valid notability-inheriting SIZE fork and the issue is just that we need to wait for it to look less odd by creating not only a bunch of other sister articles on other specific industries, but also the parent(s) too (and then explain how that remotely fits with our basic model, which is top down with timely splitting, not bottom up with delayed infilling). MickMacNee (talk) 21:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I was a title skeptical by the title but when I saw the reference and notability of the subject, I see no reason to delete. Satisfies WP:GNG. Japan is well-known for video games around the world. Much better for them than anime IMO.--NortyNort (Holla) 12:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note Since there's been a lot of talk as to the existence (or lack thereof) of sufficient coverage, I've tagged the article for rescue, which will hopefully bring some improvements in sourcing.--Yaksar (let's chat) 17:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The article under discussion here has been {{rescue}} flagged by an editor for review by the Article Rescue Squadron. Yaksar (let's chat) 17:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and merge into a Economic impact of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami. I agree with the nominator though on the UNDUE weight to video games. What about the impact on the stock market, manufacturing, fishing etc? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Like said before, this article was made by WikiProject Video Games people. We have no idea how to make an article on those fields. Just because other people haven't made those articles, doesn't mean there can't be an article on video games. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    The fact that this was made by people who are only interested in video games and are thus probably biased about the relative importance of what interests them in the grand scheme of notability, is the problem. If you gave the collection of references that supposedly support the notability of this topic to a group of editors only interested in writing Wikipedia articles, they would most likely decide there is no topic to write about here at all, and if they did decided some of this info was worth documenting, they would not have begun doing so by creating this completely stand-alone NPOV content fork. MickMacNee (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly Mick. The article should be written from the perspective of the earthquake not the effect it had on the video games industry. The very fact that we have such an article with no apparent coverage of the economic effects of the disasters illustrates UNDUE WEIGHT and contrary to NPOV. A summary of the effects balanced with the other economic effects would be more encyclopedic. The video games industry is non important in relation to some of the other impacts it had which are not even mentioned sadly.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:04, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I understand the concern, I'd like to point out that the WP:VG members have been the bad guys in more than one AfD, and suggest that you take a look at our deletion logs. While we are interested in video games, we are just as interested in the building an encyclopedia as the "group of editors only interested in writing Wikipedia articles" you mentioned. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    I think I'd be more convinced if you had examples of the VG members in question having produced good content on topics unrelated to their field of interest, just for the sake of building the pedia (and better, evidence of that content receiving peer-review praise for how well written and proportionate it is), rather than showing that they do clear out their area of junk from time to time (which is after all, still an example of editting in a field of interest). MickMacNee (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's what I could find. Out content has been cited in several articles at GameStudies.org.[2] The site is a peer-reviewed, scholarly journal that has a Board of reviewers from academic institutes, a team of editors, and is listed on the Directory of Open Access Journals. The Virginia Heffernan of the New York Times likes our articles.[3] Rob Crossley of Edge magazine cited some of our compiled information in one of the publication's online articles.[4] The magazine later criticized us for our treatment of older games that lack sources Wikipedia deems reliable.[5] I.e. we delete, merge, and otherwise deal with video game topics that don't comply with Wikipedia's guidelines. The article appeared online and in issue 199.
    You're entitled to your opinion, so I won't go back and forth like this on something that is starting to become tangential. I believe that root of most AfDs is that the group of editors simply have a difference of opinion as to how the polices and guidelines should be applied. But some of the comments aimed at the editors involved in the article have bordered on insulting in my opinion. I'll leave this conversation with you at that. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    You misunderstood. I was referring to examples of VG editors showing they had the ability to write articles neutrally and in appropriate proportion about things that are not about video games, such as politics, history, geography, etc, etc, and especially examples that have been reviewed and praised by other Wikipedia editors who do the same. While it's an acheivement for any Wikipedian to be praised by outside sources, it's still a case of VG focussed people analysing VG focused Wikipedia content. MickMacNee (talk) 18:33, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    WP is a volunteer project. You cannot force people to write on topics they have no interest in. Of course, it's good advice for editors to be broad , but we cannot enforce that like it seems you are asking. --MASEM (t) 05:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. I am talking about how the people asserting that this is not a violation can prove that they know how to write articles properly on all topics, and thus have not been unduly influenced by their love of the industry as they made the decision to write about this topic. People don't get a free pass here to write poorly and create NPOV violations just because they are doing it as a volunteer. MickMacNee (talk) 06:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I recommend that your posts not be riddled with accusations and assumptions and a requirement to prove something I've seen no one on this Wiki obliged to prove. As an FYI, I've worked on Cat, Henry Fonda, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (film), the Star Wars film articles, and others. My edits have nothing to do with bias and everything to do with an interest in the topic. The fact that I've frequently held many articles to strict criteria and was on the side of deletion in many cases. No one here is acting with impartiality or an agenda to create articles that do not pass notability. To show a previous work, Controversy over the usage of Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man is a pretty blatant example of working on an article that ventures outside of the scope. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    You've never seen anyone at Wikipedia be asked to prove they can write according to policy when that's exactly they claim they can do in a discussion? Really? Nobody's 'made accusations' of you, but the simple observation of what your primary interest here is, is perfectly valid given the issue is an apparent lack of perspective in the final article, and a serious over-egging of the apparent notability. As for your other work in other fields, great, but it doesn't take any leap of judgement to decide whether or not to create an article on a well known film or actor - there is absolutely nothing in those acts to show that you have the ability to judge what is and is not a notable topic in a granulated manner as this requires. Partipation in VG deletions is irrelevant, as I've explained elsehwere. And the VG controversy article only again shows a propensity to elevate coverage out of proportion when writing about this field. Again, that's another article I can barely read all the way through, and I doubt anyone else not particularly interested in VG could either. I know what the general topic is, and even the lede is excessively detailed, but I'd be amazed if that was put though a Featured Article review and didn't come out the other side at least half the size, if not with a recommendation to merge. I'm dissappointed it was made a GA when it consists of just two sections, a 'Background' section which is wierdly, at 12 paragraphs and nearly 3 pages long seems to cover the whole topic, with a little Aftermath section tacked on to the end. In it's entirety, it reads pretty much as a news piece, with lots of quotes and 'he said she said' type narrative, and not much else. That's not a Good Article for me tbh, and it's certianly not proof as regards my original concern. MickMacNee (talk) 18:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    So you're basic argument is "I have no interest in VGs, so I can't stand to read this article", which screams WP:IDONTLIKEIT. WP is not paper - it has the capability of including topics that would be ignored in printed works. This means that you may not be interested in every article, but as long as there's demonstrated evidence that there is a broad section interested in it (eg through notability that has been shown through several secondary sources used here), we can keep it. --MASEM (t) 18:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    How is something that was apparently controversial enough to be brought to the attention of the then Prime Minister of Great Britain that was covered in the BBC, Manchester Evening News, The Times, and The Washington Times is out proportion? Would you be a dear and demonstrate what content is excessive and needn't be covered for this article, or perhaps how it qualifies as news? Though I could understand why you said that, since you also called Muslim Massacre a news article. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This bit has tipped into a tangent that could distract others from the AfD aspect of the discussion. Points have been made and things have been said. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but let us discuss this in a reasonable manner while assuming good faith. If points need to be restated, I think it would be best to do so at the bottom of the page. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Sorry, I'd mostly written my replies before seeing this. If people want to move them all, they can, but I'm just placing them here for now, I'm not willfully ignoring your point. MickMacNee (talk) 21:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (@New Age Retro Hippie) Your condescension aside, with that rather poor Muslim Massacre article, you've just given another example of VG people writing an article with a rather skewed perspective on what constitutes notability. Not that it had much even then, it has gone on to have zero lasting notability as the article shows quite well. If anyone attempted to show right now just how that 'controversy' passed the more long term aspects WP:EVENT, they would fail miserably. If I recall correctly, people couldn't even make up their minds at the time as to whether they were writing an article on a notable game or on a notable controversy infact. I think in the end an attempt was made to claim that having half a notable game and half a notable controversy, added up to a notably controversial game. It clearly didn't, and Wikipedia ended up with a rather weak article on both counts. As for the idea that we create an article on everything the PM gets questioned about, or the idea that presenting news sources shows how something isn't news - fine, if you believe that, then this whole debate has probably been pretty pointless from the get go. I leave others to read the article for themselves and give their opinion, if they care to. MickMacNee (talk) 21:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suggest that in the future, you try not to sound condescending when you're accusing others of condescending. I did not "create" any perception of controversy. Far more than a so-called bias toward creating such topics, there exists a bias from you arguing that these topics are not notable. I am also curious why you did not address what content in the article was excessive - how can something be "cut in half" if you cannot even demonstrate what contents can be removed? And how does it not work as a long-term topic when the events of the topic span something around one year of time? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • BIAS has not one single thing to do with whether an editor takes a consistent position in Afds or not. It is relevant to whether an editor consistently creates the same type of article with the same type of flaws, based on their basic interests. And you can be curious all you want, it's pretty obvious from my description of it, what I would cut from that article, but as Guyinblack25 says below, this is not the place to be having that detailed discussion. Maybe I'll put it up for GAR. MickMacNee (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (@Masem)Unsurprisingly, your attempt to tell me what my argument is, was wrong. I cannot read that article not because I do not like VG, I cannot read it because it's not written as an encyclopoedic article. It has no notable topic behind it, and it shows to the average reader - who can, whether they are interested in a topic or not, actually read about it and judge whether what they just read was appropriate or not. As said before, I'm not interested in rennaisance painters at all, but I can read a Wikipedia FA on one easily. Do you honestly think this could ever be turned into an FA in the same way? It hasn't got a hope in hell of that tbh. Trying to excuse the hosting of such material with NOTPAPER is simply not going to fly - NOTPAPER is not a licence to use and abuse Wikipedia to create a vast body of detailed coverage of the sort that would be of absolutely no interest to any general reader at all - that's not an NPOV issue, that's a simple issue of NOT full stop. Yes, we can have some material about the effects of the event on industry, but that has to be presented in proper proportion to the rest of the material out there in the real world about all the other effects. And sorry, but in the real world, outside of the places where VG by necessity is the central topic of interest, the effects on the VG industry is not of great concern, not in the way this article's mere existence suggests. Wikipedia is a general reference work first and foremost. NOTPAPER is how we justify simply writing about things like video games and notable people/firms/genres in it. It's not how we justify writing about the minutia of the industry in such excrutiating detail that the only readers of it would be people wholly vested in it. That's simply a non-starter in terms of basic policy, as it positions Wikipedia as an integral part of that industry's media. It isn't. Not in the slightest. And as has been requested repeatedly - if you think this topic does indeed have the supporting evidence of GNG type coverage of the topic, which is the Effect on the VG industry, not little snippets of news or VG vested opinion pieces or cherry picked lines of far larger works, then please provide the exact references so others can judge the who's, what's and why's of exactly how independent, in depth, and representative of the broad view that they really are. MickMacNee (talk) 21:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    MickMacNee- I suggest that you either take a step away from the discussion for a short bit or stick to solely citing policies and guidelines. Your comments are are really pushing Wikipedia:Civility. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    I've referred to policy throughout. You do not have to be littering every other word with blue links to be referring to what are some pretty basic concepts. If people want to know what specific paragraph or line I get my view from, they need only ask. MickMacNee (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    That's very good of you. However, I hope that the discussion is kept solely to policies and guidelines. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
    You claim you cannot read the article because you cannot figure out the topic, yet the first sentence reads: The 2011 Tōhoku earthquake has had a significant impact on Japan's video game industry. The quality of the article, barring a few runs at copyediting, is no less than any other FA article and meets all other policy and guidelines for WP content. So the text of the article is pretty clear, and doesn't require intimate VG knowledge to appreciate. So your claim of being unable to read the article screams an immediate bias based on a loose understanding of the topic alone believing it to be inappropriate. You claim its not notable, but that's demonstrated by reading through the article, and understanding how all the sources come together to show this notable. (Notability does not require a topic to cover every single aspect of a topic "X", that's why we are a tertiary source to summarize sources into appropriate articles). Again, I do agree that this article stands out as there are no other present "Effect of the quake/tsunami articles on X industry" articles, but they can be generated in time, and when they are, we can talk about normalization. But there's no policy or guideline that requires us to remove this article until those exist. --MASEM (t) 21:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    You're attempts at telling me what I think are not only still completely wrong, they are now starting to be pretty insulting to boot. You've pretty much just called me a thick idiot t.b.h. with all that stuff about the first line and 'not being able to read the article' or understand the topic. I am not unable to read this article or appreciate the topic out of any basic lack of reading skills, and if you want to assert it's out of some hatred for the topic, go ahead, nothing I've said supports such a blatant attempt to play the man not the ball. If you really don't understand my meaning when I talk about the 'general reader' and how that relates to the basic mission and NOT/NOTPAPER, then just ignore it. At no point did I say that an intimate knowledge of the topic was required to be able to read the article, that's simply your attempt to interpret my point, and I guarantee it's utterly wrong. As for the point about notability, you've got that wrong as well. As a tertiary source, the correct statement is: we are not here to cover every aspect of topic X, we are here to summarize what sources say about topic X. So if anything, that supports deletion, not retention, as if this article attempts to do anything, it's to cover every detail of the 'effect of the event on the VG industry' in the way a primary source would, not a tertiary source. Simply put, no, it's not sufficient to claim that because we have a collection of bits and pieces, it adds up to a whole. Compare that to something truly notable - people do not look at the World War II article and say, well, there's lots of sources about bits and pieces of this conflict, so I guess they all come together to show notability. No, not at all. The notability comes form sources treating it as a single topic worthy of significant coverage. That is what is meant by 'topic' in the GNG. Your claim that this is just a copyedit or two away from being an FA really is incredible tbh. Go for it if you think that, prove me wrong. If you can get this onto the Main Page as a topic I promise I'll never offer my ignorant and biased opinion about a VG article ever again. I'll stick to the easy stuff like writing about the BNP. MickMacNee (talk) 22:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    No, notability is based on bringing together multiple sources to show the topic is notable, that's why the GNG is based on "multiple independent secondary sources". Sources may cover the entire breadth of a topic, such as an biography, but more often, sources only cover parts of a topic and we have to group and organize them appropriate (take the case of most living persons without any biography, we have to build that up from several sources). Notability does not come from one source, it comes from showing the topic covered in a plethora of sources such as outlined here. --MASEM (t) 22:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    You're so wrong it's unbelievable. There are plenty of people, Jimbo included, who would put such a biography up for deletion on basic BLP grounds, never mind notability grounds, if indeed the article author, in order to be able to write about the person at all, had had to go digging around putting partial bits and pieces found in sources together to present a 'whole' in Wikipedia. If they could not even find a single source which covered directly and in detail the main reason why the person was notable (which is the topic in a BLP) let alone more than one, to support their basic notability, then they are not summarising real world coverage in the slightest, they are actively engaging in original research, which is something entirely different. This is GNG 101, this is what a 'topic' is as defined as, this is what must be covered directly and in detail by a source, and more than one source at that. You have confused the correct idea that the topic "need not be the main topic of the source material" (i.e., you can have a book which devotes a significant chapter to the effect on the games industry but be about the quake as a whole, to support the idea it was a topic in of itself) with the false idea that there doesn't have to be any significant coverage of it as a topic as a whole at all in any sources, and as long as the sources all talk about some little part of the whole, then you can put them all together to somehow make the whole - that's you putting them together to support a conclusion not supported by the sources, a.k.a, original research. MickMacNee (talk) 23:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    So instead, then lets break this article into the clearly notable sections by your definition and have "Video games cancelled due to the quake/tsunami", "Video game delays due to the quake/tsunami", etc. because there are sources that clearly cover these aspects by themselves....Except we'd be left with very stubby articles repeating the same information about the quake and tsunami with only a few blips about the actual topic. Instead, we use the common sense approach that talking about all the effects on the VG industry of the quake/tsunami is not novel synthesis and thus to create a stronger article. The same reason I would even propose further to merge up to a larger broad industry effect article once the others have been created and we can judge how to normalize everything. --MASEM (t) 23:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Err, what? GNG is a presumption for inclusoin, it's not a free pass over more basic policies, or even common sense. I think NOT#NEWS and NOT#INFO would adequately cover any attempt to write articles on the 'topics' of Video games cancelled due to the 2011 Tōhoku quake/tsunami or Video game delays due to the 2011 Tōhoku quake/tsunami. When looked at in those terms, it only becomes more obvious that to accept this as an article here, you pretty much have to suspend all notions that Wikipedia is first and foremost a general reference work which also has some content about video games. Such articles would never fit here by any measure, and bundling them together without sources supporting the main topic shouldn't really hide the fact that this is what this article is currently. And if we believed for a second idea that we are all just waiting for the other forks to catch up, then in the fullness of time we could also have List of IT projects cancelled by the 2011 Tōhoku quake/tsunami, List of car models delayed by the 2011 Tōhoku quake/tsunami, List of buildings projects cancelled due to the 2011 Tōhoku quake/tsunami. It's ridiculous. I cannot see anybody in the fullness of time publishing books, or even chapters of books, on those topics of supposed historical notability. MickMacNee (talk) 00:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course we wouldn't have all those articles because alone they would be stubby and approach NOTNEWS, but common sense says there's a larger notability of the economic impact including within specific subareas that all those articles would feed into. And of course, we're only a week + change from the actual event; the economic impact particularly if the reactors continue to leak more will last for years, so such an article or set of articles will continue to grow. This is why notability is a guideline as it requires common sense in certain applications such as this where clearly an encyclopedic article can be written even if the exact letter of the "law" (what there is of that on WP) is not followed. --MASEM (t) 00:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    The notion of what is and is not 'common sense' is one of the most abused ideas on the pedia. It's amazing how many times perfectly ordinary editing decisions are turned into exceptions to the rule in the name of common sense. It's a wonder anyone bothered to even write the GNG as nobody ever seems to accept that it is in itself the expression of some very basic common sense views about the fundemental mission of Wikipedia. Yes it's been a week, and this article is already bigger than the whole Economic Effects of 9/11 article has achieved in 10 years. And there isn't even an Economic Effects article for the quake yet. That's where this particular brand of common sense gets the pedia. MickMacNee (talk) 01:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This "common sense" does not cause a notable article - such as the general economic effect as the tsunami - to not exist. As has been repeated many times, the fact that those articles do not exist is because no one has made them, not because anyone who worked on the existing one believes that this is the most important economic impact of the tsunami. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 01:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which ones? Please present them, so that the closer might be able to see what is being held up here as an example of this topic being treated as a topic, and by who, and why. MickMacNee (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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