Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry B. Perry

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article in all its versions is a copyright violation by Bluecountrymutt from https://cafriseabove.org/henry-buford-herky-perry. This requires deletion irrespective of the issue of notability. Because this editor has committed numerous copyright violations, see Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#User:Bluecountrymutt, I am indefinitely blocking them. Sandstein 18:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Henry B. Perry

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Henry B. Perry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Fails WP:BASIC and WP:ANYBIO. This person was one of the 922 pilots of the Tuskegee Airmen, and the sources listed to support notability are mostly blogs and obituaries. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep "Perry is best known as the U.S. Air Force's first African American jet pilot and first African American jet instructor, sharing these two honors with three other African American officers." This sounds like a pretty notable distinction. There might have been 922 pilots in the Tuskegee Airmen but that doesn't mean none of them are notable. I was able to find these sources on Google,[1][2][3], [4]. I think this page needs work but not deletion. BuySomeApples (talk) 10:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the quote you gave from the page says he was the first and then shares these honors with three other African American officers, So which was it? Was he first or one of 4? In any event the only source for that isn't RS. The sources you gave are all just passing mentions with nothing in depth about him. Mztourist (talk) 10:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seemed pretty clear to me that he was one of 4 who became pilots at the same time. This means that they would share the distinction, but the small number still makes it...distinctive. James Voss and Susan Helms share the distinction of the longest single spacewalk, its not less special because 2 people did it at the same time. BuySomeApples (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per nom. There are two sources in the entire article that discuss the subject in detail beyond simply his name or a couple of sentences; an article from "blackthen.com" (which appears to be open to anyone when writing articles; the Jae Jones credited with writing it does not seem to be a writer of any fame) and an obituary (if this was credited as a significant source, we'd have hundreds of millions of articles on random people by now). Andrew Davidson and NemesisAT seem to not have even reviewed the sources before putting in their vote. Lettlerhello • contribs 00:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lettler seems to be making things up without supporting evidence. The timestamps indicate that I spent over an hour on this topic while Lettler spent less than 15 mins. And I improved the article while they haven't touched it. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • So? I've spent a fair amount of time working on articles that were kept after I voted to delete them while others who voted keep never touched those same articles. Lettler is entitled to their evaluation of the article just as you are. I don't recall seeing a requirement to work on an article before you were permitted to vote Keep or Delete. Intothatdarkness 00:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Passing mentions, nothing more. Mztourist (talk) 07:58, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, the Air Force had thousands of flight instructors at the time and there were hundreds of thousands of African-American servicemen who were in the military at the time of integration so beyond the fact that there is no significant coverage neither of those two claims indicates notability. GPL93 (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwaiiplayer (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? I'm not sure that evaluating the lack depth of coverage and reliability of references used is some sort of unfathomable concept and I certainly would not use it to paint other editors of trying to "erase" anything. The history of the Tuskegee Airmen is covered at length and in depth, as it should be, and there are many members that meet notability standards and they have received more than passing mentions, being covered on non-reliable blogsites, and listings on unit rosters. But this is not the case with the subject of the article. GPL93 (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep - the main purpose of GNG is to ensure that we can write an encyclopedia artice in a verifiable (reliable sources). neutral (multiple sources) manner that gives the reader some comprehension of the topic. That's what we have here, an article that meets WP:V that is far beyond a stub. This is not fancruft, but details the life of a person with significant accomplishments. Because the conditions of WP:WHYN are met, I believe this encyclopedia is more comprehensive when this topic is included, and would lose some value should the topic be removed. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 22:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have you looked at the sources? Do you seriously believe that BASIC is satisfied? Mztourist (talk) 13:13, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen the sources, there isn't much SIGCOV, but an article with significant information has been created from the pieces. I would return the question and ask "do you seriously believe the article is harming the encyclopedia, instead of helping it", but Intothatdarkness has below presentend siginifcant evidence that in fact this article does harm the encyclopedia. I will re-evaluate my !vote accordingly. Intothatdarkness, your "Easy Company" reference is going right over my head, since this is not an area of expertise for me. Can you help me out? Thanks! 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 13:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that...it's actually a reference to something another poster (I believe Mztourist) brought up in another AfD for an article like this. After "Band of Brothers" you started seeing a flood of articles about members of the unit covered (Easy Company) who were only notable for having BEEN in Easy Company. This is something similar. That and the majority of information is coming from a single website (cafriseabove.org), and if you see my comment below I'm not sure they're a reliable or necessarily neutral source. I'd feel MUCH better about these articles if they were based on something other than it and obituaries (or recycled content from either of those sources). Intothatdarkness 14:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Changed !vote, see reason below. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 14:35, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If you actually review https://cafriseabove.org/henry-buford-herky-perry/, you'll see that most of this article is a direct copy from that source, including the flight training error identifying Perry as Deiz (the article also links to the CAF article on Deiz at a later point). The massive copyvio alone makes this suspect. I've made some wording changes, but caught the major lift when I tired to confirm the misidentification in the article of Perry as Deiz. It also leads me to question the viability of the CAF site as RS. Notability aside (and I'm still not convinced this isn't another Easy Company situation), there seem to be major issues with the use of sources in this (and likely other) articles. Intothatdarkness 13:48, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - as copyvio. There are earlier versions of this article that aren't a copyvio of cafriseabove.org (which according to Earwig is 87% copied from that source), but the earlier versions are a copyvio of BlackThen. That said, I still think this topic is notable, as Perry was (one of four) the first African-American flight instructor in the U.S. Air Force. I believe an encyclopdic article could be built on available sources. Nonetheless cafriseabove is certainly questionable, as it lists a Wiki source as its base. I list it as "questionable" instead of "unreliable" because it is possible the site has fact-checked the information on that fan-wiki, but frankly I feel that's unlikely. FWIW, another source with a bit of info not available in the current article is [6]. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 14:35, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might be possible to incorporate quite a bit of the information in these articles into an expanded version of the Postwar section of the Tuskeegee Airmen article, with redirects to that location. While individual notability is to me low, I think there's some collective notability which might be better-suited for the main article. Intothatdarkness 15:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Intothatdarkness. Merging relevant details into the Tuskeegee Airmen article, possibly in a new section focused on the impact that former members had on the postwar Air Force, is likely more appropriate than independent articles where notability is murky at best based on available sourcing. Best, GPL93 (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how that fits into that article/section, what would be better is a "list of accomplished Tuskeegee Airmen" where some verifiable biographical information is available beyond birth/death/marriage dates, since I don't think we want a 900+ list. My idea is probably unmanageable, but I could certainly support moving information to a table provided it is small enough to fit without being unweildly. Anyway, I wouldn't merge anything from this article until it's verified to not be a copyvio. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 19:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking a note in the Tuskeegee article could be added listing the first four who transitioned to jets and then became instructors (which seems to be a large part of the basis for Perry's claimed notability...although he shares it with three other individuals). You won't be able to fold all these articles into the main one, but I do believe articles like this one, along with Haywood, Lench (who's still a red link), and Whitehead, are good candidates. It would also help expand the postwar/legacy section of the Tuskeegee article. Just my take. Intothatdarkness 19:58, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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