Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Dragon Society (comics)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics. Consensus to merge into List of teams and organizations in DC Comics and the redirect pointing to Black Dragon Society. Addition of the section into Black Dragon Society can be further discussed outside AfD if needed, as the consensus is there for only merging after multiple relistings. (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
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- Black Dragon Society (comics) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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No apparent notability, entirely plot and fails WP:GNG. Cited only to individual comic books. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:15, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Comics and animation. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:15, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails to meet WP:GNG.RomanRaju (talk) 11:19, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Merge selectively to
List of teams and organizations in DC Comics#BBlack Dragon Society (as part of a new In American popular culture section, or something like that) as WP:AtD. This is mentioned but not discussed in more detail in a few web articles. If someone turns up more secondary sources, I'd be happy to hear about it. There also seems to be a Marvel version, which is actually briefly discussed here, but that seems to be a Master thesis. Daranios (talk) 11:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)- Another source, which has a bit of commentary, is All New, All Different? - A History of Race and the American Superhero, p. 27. Daranios (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- And a journal article with a bit of commentary. Daranios (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- I have to admit, the fact that several different groups had their own version of a fictional depiction of the Black Dragon Society makes considering sources a tad confusing. Like, this journal article is about the version used by Fawcett Comics, well before their buyout by DC, and thus is not the same "Black Dragon Society" created by Fox and Burnley that the majority of this article is about. But since Fawcett was later bought by DC, its kinda-sorta related? In any case, it definitely would be a useful source for discussing the fictional depictions of the group at the main Black Dragon Society article. Rorshacma (talk) 23:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Rorshacma: Indeed. I think it's worth considering that despite the introductory sentence, the title and content of the current article do cover appearances in comics by different pubishers, not specifically DC only. So I'm changing my preferred merge target to Black Dragon Society, viewing the reception/reaction in American popular culture as a sub-topic of the real organization. That said I still think that, while the current article presumably fails WP:NOTPLOT and WP:GNG, it still contains elements worth preserving, in a merge and its history, so that in the end it should remain a redirect. The qualifier "(comics)" is not extraordinary on Wikipedia, so I disagree with Shooterwalker that this should be an unlikely search term, and redirects are WP:CHEAP. Daranios (talk) 11:53, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- I can get behind redirecting this to the main article and adding a few sentences of information there discussing its use in pop culture using the sources you've found here. Rorshacma (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Rorshacma: Indeed. I think it's worth considering that despite the introductory sentence, the title and content of the current article do cover appearances in comics by different pubishers, not specifically DC only. So I'm changing my preferred merge target to Black Dragon Society, viewing the reception/reaction in American popular culture as a sub-topic of the real organization. That said I still think that, while the current article presumably fails WP:NOTPLOT and WP:GNG, it still contains elements worth preserving, in a merge and its history, so that in the end it should remain a redirect. The qualifier "(comics)" is not extraordinary on Wikipedia, so I disagree with Shooterwalker that this should be an unlikely search term, and redirects are WP:CHEAP. Daranios (talk) 11:53, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- I have to admit, the fact that several different groups had their own version of a fictional depiction of the Black Dragon Society makes considering sources a tad confusing. Like, this journal article is about the version used by Fawcett Comics, well before their buyout by DC, and thus is not the same "Black Dragon Society" created by Fox and Burnley that the majority of this article is about. But since Fawcett was later bought by DC, its kinda-sorta related? In any case, it definitely would be a useful source for discussing the fictional depictions of the group at the main Black Dragon Society article. Rorshacma (talk) 23:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- And a journal article with a bit of commentary. Daranios (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Another source, which has a bit of commentary, is All New, All Different? - A History of Race and the American Superhero, p. 27. Daranios (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Delete- Very minor group with almost no sources. The three sources provided by Daranios' link are extremely trivial - they basically just name drop the group with no real explanation or coverage aside from the fact that they existed (and one of them appears to not even be about the same group, as it occurs in an issue of Captain Marvel from long before Fawcett was bought out by DC.) I also was not able to find anything better in my own searches, as most of what I can find are not reliable sources, such as DC Wikis. Without any real sources, I don't think merging to the list of teams would be appropriate. At best, this could possibly redirect to List of DC Comics characters: D#Dragon King, the one member of any note. That said, if anyone finds any good sources discussing the fact that multiple companies used the name "Black Dragon Socieity" as villains due to the real world group, it might be worth adding a few sentences discussing that trend to the article on the real-life Black Dragon Society. Rorshacma (talk) 15:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)- @Rorshacma: I think one such source could be Japan-Bashing - Anti-Japanism Since the 1980s, p. 112-113, but, *grr*, I can no longer see it. The book I've added above also has a very brief comment to that effect: "The Black Dragon Society, featured in much of American popular culture", to then go on to talk about the comics' version. No objection to covering the comics version briefly at Black Dragon Society and redirect there. Daranios (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely think that while the DC specific version is not particularly notable itself, the fact that the real life group was used as villains for multiple unrelated pieces of fiction due to wartime propaganda and general anti-Japanese sentiment is something worth discussing in that article. Rorshacma (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Rorshacma: I think one such source could be Japan-Bashing - Anti-Japanism Since the 1980s, p. 112-113, but, *grr*, I can no longer see it. The book I've added above also has a very brief comment to that effect: "The Black Dragon Society, featured in much of American popular culture", to then go on to talk about the comics' version. No objection to covering the comics version briefly at Black Dragon Society and redirect there. Daranios (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Black Dragon Society - Per the discussion above, I think adding some information regarding its use as villains in multiple works of fiction would be worth mentioning at the article for the real life Black Dragon Society, in which case this article can be used as a redirect there. Note that I am not advocating copying/pasting any of the information from this current article over there, but instead adding a few new sentences using some of the sources mentioned by Daranios. Rorshacma (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Deleteper Rorshacma. Does not reach WP:SIGCOV, and an unlikely search term. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)- Refactoring this to redirect. In good faith, I still don't really agree that a redirect makes sense here. But I believe in more WP:CONSENSUS and WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep or merge with List of teams and organizations in DC Comics in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE. --Rtkat3 (talk) 04:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 01:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The WordsmithTalk to me 23:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per above. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- Are you talking about the merge to Black Dragon Society or the merge to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics? --Rtkat3 (talk) 23:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- I have no preference. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Are you talking about the merge to Black Dragon Society or the merge to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics? --Rtkat3 (talk) 23:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It appears that consensus is developing to point this to Black Dragon Society but there is still consideration for pointing to List of DC Comics characters.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 03:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I added an "In popular culture" section to the Black Dragon Society article, which I believe is justified even if we decide to merge this with List of teams and organizations in DC Comics.Cortador (talk) 06:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- So far, the Fawcett Comics version was listed there. If the outcome is merge to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics, a brief information on the DC version should be listed in that section you added. --Rtkat3 (talk) 19:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- I couldn't find any reliable sources discussing the DC version. Cortador (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- Which, I want to point out, is a very important part of merging. Merging does not just simply mean copying and pasting one article wholesale into another, unsourced information and all. Rorshacma (talk) 17:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- We still have to put the DC Comics version somewhere as I had mentioned to @Cortador:. --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- We don't. If no reliable sources cover the DC version, it's not notable. Cortador (talk) 22:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Cortador, Rtkat3, and Rorshacma: All New, All Different? - A History of Race and the American Superhero, p. 27, mentioned above, does verify and somewhat discuss the appearance in DC's All-Star Comics, and there are other mentions like in Comics Through Time. So while I think the DC version is not notable enough for a stand-alone article, I believe merging appropriate parts to both List of teams and organizations in DC Comics#B and Black Dragon Society#In popular culture, with a view to what's relevant to the target's topic, is warranted. The redirect, however, should point to Black Dragon Society#In popular culture in the end in my view, as ...(comics) is not specific to DC. Daranios (talk) 16:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can have those information taken care of by your suggestion by leaving brief information at the Black Dragon Society's section in question and the full information at the Black Dragon Society section at List of teams and organizations in DC Comics. Anyone else agree with what Daranios pitched? --Rtkat3 (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Cortador, Rtkat3, and Rorshacma: All New, All Different? - A History of Race and the American Superhero, p. 27, mentioned above, does verify and somewhat discuss the appearance in DC's All-Star Comics, and there are other mentions like in Comics Through Time. So while I think the DC version is not notable enough for a stand-alone article, I believe merging appropriate parts to both List of teams and organizations in DC Comics#B and Black Dragon Society#In popular culture, with a view to what's relevant to the target's topic, is warranted. The redirect, however, should point to Black Dragon Society#In popular culture in the end in my view, as ...(comics) is not specific to DC. Daranios (talk) 16:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- We don't. If no reliable sources cover the DC version, it's not notable. Cortador (talk) 22:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- We still have to put the DC Comics version somewhere as I had mentioned to @Cortador:. --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Which, I want to point out, is a very important part of merging. Merging does not just simply mean copying and pasting one article wholesale into another, unsourced information and all. Rorshacma (talk) 17:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- I couldn't find any reliable sources discussing the DC version. Cortador (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- So far, the Fawcett Comics version was listed there. If the outcome is merge to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics, a brief information on the DC version should be listed in that section you added. --Rtkat3 (talk) 19:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.