Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1955 Hawaii R6D-1 crash

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. postdlf (talk) 05:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

1955 Hawaii R6D-1 crash

1955 Hawaii R6D-1 crash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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not notable as a military aircraft accident, can be adequately covered in List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1955–1959)#1955 Petebutt (talk) 19:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Keep. Quote from the article: "It remains the worst air disaster in the history of Hawaii and the deadliest accident involving a heavier-than-air aircraft in the history of United States naval aviation". Presumably that makes it notable, military accident or not. For a more general argument that applies here too, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1956 Atlantic R6D-1 crash. GregorB (talk) 23:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep - Are we really saying that an aviation accident with in excess of 50 fatalities is not notable because it involved a military aircraft. Worst ever aviation accident in Hawaii also adds weight to the case for a stand-alone article. Mjroots (talk) 16:26, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I am reserving judgement as to whether to keep or delete this article, but I just want to point out that I have been unable to verify that the statement that it is the worst crash in Hawaii is correct. I'm not saying it is incorrect, just that I haven't seen anything yet to confirm that it is. The statement "the deadliest accident involving a heavier-than-air aircraft in the history of United States naval aviation" is from a website for an association for veterans of a particular US Navy squadron, and may not pass muster as a WP:RS. YSSYguy (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It was the worst DC-6 accident at the time. Mjroots (talk) 22:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
  • While skepticism regarding anything on Wikipedia is wise and, as far as it goes, commendable with regard to protecting the truth, it stretches credulity to think that a crash killing more than 66 people would have gone unnoticed in online plane crash databases of various types and among Wikipedia's other aviation-accident-and-incidents articles. Granted, some forgotten crash that was even worse could have happened in Hawaii and been so completely forgotten or hushed-up that no reference to it can be found or remembered, but that is highly unlikely to say the least. By all means, research the matter further and see if you can find a deadlier air crash in Hawaii; if you find one we can correct this article (and, of course, add an article on that crash to Wikipedia). Meanwhile, I would say it's 99-plus percent certain that it was the deadliest; you can always add "as far as is known" to the text or something similar if you remain uncomfortable with not having absolute proof, although you should remember that it's difficult-to-impossible to prove a negative conclusively. And if there ever is a deadlier accident in Hawaii, we can (and will) change this article (and presumably add an article on the new accident). Mdnavman (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)mdnavman
  • I think we can drop objections to it being the deadliest heavier-than-air accident in U.S. navy aviation history as well. The then-Naval Historical Center (now Naval History and Heritage Command) in Grossnick, Roy A. United States Naval Aviation 1910-1995. Washington, D.C.: Naval Historical Center, undated, ISBN 0-945274-34-3., p. 206, confirms it. Again, as with the above statement about Hawaii, we can always change it if someone unearths a forgotten incident that was deadlier, Wikipedia articles being living documents. And if there ever is a deadlier U.S. naval aviation accident, we will have to change this article (and add an article on the new accident, too). Mdnavman (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)mdnavman
• Keep - Keep it, of course. It is extremely odd to me that such a large aviation disaster – 66 dead! – would be considered unremarkable. And that's without considering its significance in Hawaiian and U.S. naval aviation history or that it was tied with 1955's worst commercial aviation accident for the deadliest air accident of the year or, per Aviation Safety Network Aircraft Accident Douglas R6D-1 (DC-6) 131612 Honolulu, HI, that at the time it was both the worst DC-6 accident in history and the second-worst aviation accident in U.S. history. And if 66 deaths isn't enough to make a military crash significant, what on earth would be? {We also should note that many commercial and military aviation accidents and incidents with far fewer fatalities have their own articles; just click around in the "Aviation Accidents and Incidents in 1955" template at the bottom of the article to see that this is the case in 1955 alone, let alone in almost every other year.) Far from deleting the article, we should be surprised that this crash hasn't gotten more attention sooner. Mdnavman (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)mdnavman
• Keep while being a supporter of the military aircraft crash more often and dont need article camp, clearly a non-operational, non-training trooping flight with 66 deaths is of note. Although just as an aside any article that uses "crash" always gives the impression of being more tabloid then encyclopedia and not sure anybody knows what an R6D-1 is it may be better to call it 1955 Hawaii Douglas Liftmaster accident, but that can be discussed if kept. MilborneOne (talk) 10:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Keep per Mjroots. Deadliest accident in Hawaii and at 66 dead, a higher than average death toll for a crash at that time. I also suggest this AFD be closed as a WP:SNOW....William 13:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hawaii-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Keep. For God's sake, 66 people were killed and it was one of the worst air accidents of its time. Of course it's notable. We don't just delete all aircrash articles because they're military. That would be very, very foolish and dogmatic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.