Talk:List of gay, lesbian or bisexual comics characters

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I think Cutter and Skywise from Elfquest would fit. Allegedly, they're supposed to have a sexual relationship. 惑乱 分からん 18:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do comic strips count on this page (e.g., Lawrence Poirier, Michael's gay friend in the comic strip "For Better or For Worse"? [[Briguy52748 14:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)]][reply]

I can't see why not. Go ahead. I think this list could possibly get crammed, but it's OK, so far. 惑乱 分からん 00:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)--Larrybob 20:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that comic strips, such as Dinosaur Comics and Dykes to Watch Out For, should be on a separate page. As long as comic strips are being included, where is Ethan Green from The (Mostly Unfabulous) Social Life of Ethan Green? Or the guys from Two Guys? Lumping comic books and comic strips together, just because they share the name "comics", seems like a mistake to me. --Hypatia
I beg to differ. It's the same medium, and I don't see the point in splitting up the page because of that. You are free to add Ethan Green etc, yourself. 惑乱 分からん 00:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this list ought to be separated into strips and books. They are not the same medium, similar to how a movie and TV series are different. The style of presentation, the rhythm, and the audience are very different between the two. This should be two separate entries. Chris Griswold 06:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Some points for the discussion

惑乱 分からん 13:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am against having a different article for comic strips and comic books. There's already enough confusion with different categories for comic artists and cartoonists and so on.--Larrybob 20:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These are characters, not people.

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The name of this artcle should be changed to List of gay and bisexual characters in comics. "Comic fiction" seems somewhat confusing and could mean humorous fiction. The only thing it makes clear if we change to using characters is that we're not including autobiographical comics.--Larrybob 21:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support this. I think we should move it. However, I do not think that autobio comics are excluded from this; anyone appearing in a literary work is a character, especially in a comicbook, wherein the appearance of things is fictionalized as well. --Chris Griswold 21:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and how about "comics fiction?" "Sequential art?" --Chris Griswold 23:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article Rename

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Since we have two agreed-upon problems with the article title, lets try to figure somthing better out.

I suggest somthing like "List of gay and bisexual characters in comics". Jack Cain 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It should be "List of gay and bisexual characters in comics". Or (comics fiction). There has to be a decent collective term for comicbooks and comic strips. --Chris Griswold 15:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, yes, I meant "List of gay and bisexual characters in comics". I misstyped it before. Jack Cain 15:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm alright with the changes, both people->characters and comic fiction->comics, myself. 惑乱 分からん 01:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, glad there is support for this... one other thing, though -- currently the list includes lesbian characters, for example, several characters from Dykes To Watch Out For. At a glance, didn't see if there were any Trans characters listed (but certainly could include Anarcoma, the subject of a graphic novel published by Catalan Communications. So how about "List of LGBT characters in comics" (LGBT seems to be the most common order of the acronym used in Wikipedia.) --Larrybob 03:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, if only to bring it inline with the rest of Wikipedia`s style. Jack Cain 06:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know many trans comic characters, myself. Possibly Ranma 1/2 is a borderline case (in more senses than one, it appears sometimes @_@;). 惑乱 分からん 10:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Wonder Woman

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Because this will of course be contested repeatedly, someone has to cite this one. The Amazons are obviously lesbians, but we need something that says Diana is or embraces the entirety of the Amazon culture. Or just some very clever subtle hint. --Chris Griswold 14:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, we have to keep the subjective entries off this list. There is a place for that kind of thing.

However.

Knowing a little bit about William Moulton Marston, I decided to leave Wonder Woman on the list. Jack Cain 16:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Sufferin' Sappho!" (to quote WW) (gee, I just discovered SufferingSappho.com, a Wonder Woman fansite.) --Larrybob 17:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the Amazons of Greek mythology might have been lesbian, doesn't mean we can conclude that the Amazons of DC mythology are. Although I like the idea of WW being bi, I doubt there could be found canonical DC sources confirming it. 惑乱 分からん 22:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There have been a bunch of references to it, sometimes by people who are teasing Wonder Woman or disparaging her behind her back. The implication is there, and heavily reinforced. --Chris Griswold 22:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree. All the references are there for anyone to see. —Lesfer (talk/@) 18:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Stongly disagree. Regardless of Marston's personal life, this is a page about LGBT characters, not comics creators. At least since the Silver Age, there's been nothing in Wonder Woman's stories to indicate romantic or sexual attraction to women. If someone can cite an example of lesbianism or bisexuality from the Golden Age or any other period, then cite it; otherwise, this entry should be removed.
George Pérez established in his run on Wonder Woman that some but not all of the Amazons are in lesbian relationships. Since Diana came to Patriarch's world, she has shown romantic interest in Superman, Aquaman, Rama, and Trevor Barnes - but no women. During Phil Jimenez' run, a lesbian Amazon couple, Anaya and Iphthime, were important to the Civil War plotline. During Greg Rucka's run, when Wonder Woman was promoting her book outlining her social philosophy, she responded to a question about having a boyfriend by saying she didn't have a girlfriend either, but in the politicized context of the story, that might have been nothing more than a politicized response to promote gay rights and to remind her audience not to assume heterosexuality about anyone. Rucka did introduce a new Amazon, a blacksmith named Io, who showed signs of being attracted to Diana (stuttering in her presence, etc.) who is a far more appropriate entry for this list than Wonder Woman.
The only evidence I'm aware of concerning Wonder Woman's sexuality is that she's straight. If you want to make a list of comics characters who are supportive of the LGBT community, or of comics characters who have a strong LGBT fan following, feel free to put her right at the top. But Wonder Woman doesn't belong on this list, any more than Batman (who has also famously been snickered about and referred to as gay, both by real people and by other fictional characters) does. There are also two other Amazon characters, Hippolyta and Artemis, who have held the title of Wonder Woman, and both of them have shown exclusively heterosexual interests as well (Hippolyta, for Herakles; Artemis, for Mike Schorr). Unless someone can actually provide a citation, this entry should be stricken. There are plenty of legitimate LGBT characters - including some of her fellow Amazons - around who do belong on the list. --Peirigill 00:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
At this time, though consensus says she stays on the list. She is a representative of Amazon culture, which has been hinted at stronly as being a lesbian culture.--Chris Griswold 07:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's beyond "strongly hinted." Themyscira is an all-female culture, and as I noted, Perez and Jimenez explicitly identified lesbian couples on Themyscira - but also made it clear that not all Amazons are lesbian. Rucka reinforced that Wonder Woman considered gay rights to be part of the culture whose values she wanted to bring to Patriarch's world. If you want to cite Anaya and Iphthime, who are explicitly a lesbian couple, and Io, who is presumably lesbian, on this page, that's fine. If you want to list "the Amazons of Themyscira" as a "lesbian culture" on this page, even, that's fine. But there is a difference between being a "representative" of a culture and embodying that culture. Consider a real-world example: simply because someone is the Mayor of West Hollywood doesn't mean he or she is gay, even though they're representing a city with a significant gay population and a strong political emphasis on gay rights. Unless someone can cite evidence for me, I have yet to see any reason to believe Wonder Woman is herself lesbian or bisexual.
Does it carry any weight that gayleague.com doesn't list Wonder Woman on any of their lists, including the "uncertain orientation" and "could have been, should have been" lists? Wonder Woman, as one of the single best known superheroes in comics, seems like a rather glaring omission if there were any evidence to support this claim. --Peirigill 08:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let us not forget the interaction between Diana and Bruce Wayne. I personally have never seen or even heard of anything that hints at Diana being lesbian. At worst Diana has shown no interest in pursuing her love life, but this in no way puts her on either side. An interesting article on the matter can be found here: http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing27/feature3.shtml As for William Moulton Marston, his lifestyle doesn't make the character follow suit. He used each of the women in his life as inspirations but there is no evidence or mention anywhere that Diana was to be considered lesbian or Bi. --CoyoteJack 01:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wonder Woman vote

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I think we should vote on whether to keep Wonder Woman on this list. Please read the above arguments, or add your own, along with your vote - either Keep or Remove. Sign your vote. Votes will only be counted for those who have registered prior to this message. --Chris Griswold 19:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I realize I need to set a limit, so this vote will last one week.--Chris Griswold 23:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Remove --CoyoteJack This user registered after the vote was initiated.
Keep. —Lesfer (talk/@) 22:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand why my vote wouldn't count. I was made aware of this discussion (and the ability to discuss articles) today. My opinion is no more or less valid than anyone elses. --CoyoteJack 01:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, that is generally the way Wikipedia votes work. Wikipedia does not want people getting their friends to register just to vote on a topic; nor do they want them registering multiple usernames for the same purpose. --Chris Griswold 04:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I vote that Wonder Woman is not a lesbian.

I'm not sure I can cite a time that Wonder Woman was ever portrayed as being a lesbian, other than one off handed gag in an issue of Justice League Task Force. Indeed, my approach to Wonder Woman -- worked out with the president and publisher of DC Comics at the time -- was that Wonder Woman represented the potential for unity between men and women, socially and sexually. Raised as she was to become a great symbol of bonding and hope for equality and unity between the sexes, I never once interpreted Wonder Woman to be anything other than a straight woman.

The idea that she was raised on an island where some of the women were lesbians, Diana must therefore too be gay, is ludicrous -- born out of the same idea that kids raised with gay parents will grow up to be gay.

Diana's long time love interest was Steve Trevor; this changed with the Perez reboot. But then she was seen having romantic feelings towards Superman.

Wonder Woman's mother, too, as not a lesbian -- she was in love with Heracles and had a sexual relationship with Wildcat of the JSA. It was implied during my run on Wonder Woman that Phillipus, Captain of Hippolyta's Guard, as in love with the Queen, but little of that relationship was explored.

During the Perez run, it was established that there were many coupled-off Amazons -- most notably Penelope and Menalippe (as early as Wonder Woman (2nd. series) #21. Later, in a story featuring the first cultural exchange between the Amazons and "Man's World", a priest asked on Amazon about "missing the sharing" God intended for the sexes.

One responded, "Some do. They have sworn themselves to Artemis, the Virgin Hunter, and Athena, the Chaste Warrior. Others choose the ways of Narcissus. But most of us find satsifaction in each other."

I think most creators think of Diana as some melding of Artemis and Athena, but many do miss the Steve Trevor relationship (or, at least, some sort of romantic relationship for the Amazon Princess).

Beyond creative objections, my believe that Wonder Woman is not a lesbian comes down to one specific aspect of the character's history. I seriously doubt ANY Amazon would have made advances with Diana. They were all her elders, teachers, aunts, etc. and she was the daughter of the Queen. Practically, I doubt she would have ever been allowed to date a fellow Amazon, because of rank, age, and Hippolyta's overprotective relationship with her daughter.

Phil Jimenez —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.127.12 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your thoughts, but please don't erase discussion from a talk page as you did. CovenantD 02:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Who erased discussion, the person who posted the giant quote from Phil Jimenez? --Chris Griswold 03:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
	:::That would be the person, IP 68.175.127.12. They took out everything everybody else had written for the section. I restored it. CovenantD 03:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but you need to have been a registered Wikipedian. --Chris Griswold 04:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Remove - I haven't seen any evidence that Wonder Woman is herself bisexual or lesbian, just that she's open to and accepting of those who are. --Brian Olsen 04:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Remove, as per above. Diana has been romantically linked exclusively with men: Steve Trevor in the Golden Age; Merboy and Birdboy in the tales from her childhood as Wonder Girl; with Superman, Aquaman, Rama, Batman, and Trevor Barnes in current continuity. Phil Jimenez is a professional who wrote and drew the Wonder Woman title, including several gay characters, and as a gay writer, has a decidedly pro-gay stance; his understanding is that DC's editorial position is that Diana is gay-positive but straight. Even if he is not a registered Wikipedian, he is an expert and his remarks should carry weight.
I recommend removing Wonder Woman but adding an entry for "numerous Amazons of Themyscira" under "A", with Penelope and Menalippe, Philippus, Anaya and Iphthime, and Io listed in a sublevel to that entry.
It should be relevant to this vote that the current page marks Wonder Woman as "citation needed," and yet during this whole discussion the only specific example given of Diana even possibly showing any interest in women was the scene I referenced in Rucka's run, which appears to be a political comment on Diana's part and not an expression of her personal preference. If there are any published scenes where it's clear, either explicitly or from context, that Diana is sexually or romantically attracted to a woman, someone really needs to cite it. I'm more that willing to reconsider my vote if that happens. Otherwise, the content is not verifiable and should be removed. --Peirigill 20:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I vote to keep her on the list. Please see the discussion here: http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27039 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.95.203 (talk • contribs)
Sorry, but you need to have been a registered Wikipedian. --Chris Griswold 22:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Remove - Peirigill convinced me even before I inititated the vote, but I thought we'd see what the new consensus was. It looks like we've decided that hints and accusations aren't enough; there need to be stronger evidence to keep her on this list. I do agree that the Amazons need to be on the list, though. --<b>Chris Griswold</b> 23:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Batman

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Should Batman really be a part of this list? I'm aware that there's been plenty of discussion / homoerotic subtext and interpretation of his relationship with Robin, but there's been nothing concrete suggested in the comic books that I'm aware of. In any case, given the amount of females he's also demonstrated a clear interest in (Catwoman and Talia al Ghul to name but two), describing Batman as homosexual doesn't seem entirely accurate to me. --Joseph Q Publique 13:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

if this article is titled "List of gay, lesbian or bisexual comics characters," then batman = included. (robin also). --Ghetteaux 18:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On what grounds, Ghetteaux? Batman and Robin have never been shown having a sexual or romantic relationship in any DC continuity. They've often been parodied as a couple, but I don't think that should count. Wertham's accusations aren't generally considered accurate, let alone encyclopedic. If you can cite a published story to support your claim, please do.
Why is this question even being raised? Unless I'm completely missing something, Batman isn't on this list, but the way Joseph Q Publique phrased his question, it sounds like he's challenging a reference to Batman that's currently on the list. --Peirigill 20:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ghetteaux added it; I removed it. Ghetteaux seems unhealthily interested in this subject, repeatedly altering the Batman entry as well to reflect his feelings on the subject rather than the facts. --Chris Griswold 00:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, when I made this entry, it hadn't yet been removed. --Joseph Q Publique 06:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that Chriswold can tell me more about myself; he has a deep insight not often encounted on the internets. --Ghetteaux 12:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you can tell us why you continually insist that Batman is gay. --Chris Griswold 20:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"continually insist?" that is some strong, strong language homie. but either way, hear is the evidense: 1) the comic boox; 2) the TV show; 3) the movies; 4) the george cloonee interview; 4) the form-fitting spandex and "manties" + BDSM / leather outfit; 5) dont EVEN get me started on the fan fiction. but if the caped crusader needs 2 stay in tha closet, that'z cool w/ Ghetteaux.
yes, yes i noe it has been discussed extensively. the thing that makez it interesting is that there are so so many of you heterobats defending his het status so aggressively. eaze up, homie! even if he's queer he can still fight crime and look gothic.
if you all would give the "dark knite" a littel room to express himself, maybe he wouldn't b so tortured. let the man be himself, Chriswold. --Ghetteaux 12:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In a spirit of respect and fairness, Ghetteaux:
  • 1. What specifically in the comic book? What exact point in the comic book or definite, no-holes-barred conclusive evidence persuades you that Batman is gay? Because, with respect, the amount of heterosexual interest he seems to have demonstrated with women in various media, including mainstream comics, the animated series (Catwoman, Wonder Woman, Talia al Ghul) would seem to demonstrate the opposite;
  • 2. The T.V. show is fairly camp, true enough, but camp doesn't necessarily equal homosexual, and it wasn't (to my knowledge) in any way directly stated or even implied; and besides, the T.V show isn't generally considered to be part of the comic book continuity anyway;
  • 3. What in the movies gives you this impression - especially as, again, in all of them Batman demonstrates a clear heterosexual interest in the opposite gender (bearing in mind I haven't seen Batman and Robin);
  • 4. Not knowing the 'George Clooney' interview well enough, I can only speculate, but it seems like he would only be describing his interpretation of the character he was playing, not the character entirely, which whilst a point of interest is not really sufficient evidence to base the interpretation of the entire character on (as Clooney is, after all, one man);
  • 5. If we were to classify superheroes as gay based on their penchant for form-fitting spandex, then nearly all of them would be gay; and in any case, a preference for bondage / BSDM (which, again, it's not conclusively proven Batman has a taste for) does not equal homosexual tendencies, as heterosexual people can be interested in BSDM;
  • 6. the fanfiction is not considered canonical, and in any case is certainly not conclusive evidence; I could write slash fanfiction surmising that Joker and Two-Face had a homosexual relationship, but it wouldn't make it so.
It's not about being a 'heterobat' (whatever that is) or 'defending' Batman's heterosexuality or 'torturing' him (which would be odd, if not impossible, given that the man's a fictional character, and thus isn't likely to care about what we think anyway) - hell, give me a conclusive piece of evidence that Batman's gay (like, the character actually coming out and saying it, because everything else is just subtext and individual interpretation, which isn't conclusive), I'll change the page myself. It's about being accurate - we're comprising an encyclopedia here, and to make a claim like 'Batman is gay' that goes against most of the available evidence we have about him is going to take some pretty compelling evidence.--Joseph Q Publique 13:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Roy Harper

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Roy Harper has admitted to 'hustling' in order to score drugs, I believe it was in one of the Titans 80 Page Giants

That doesn't make him gay. It makes him a drug addict. --Chris Griswold 15:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase often used is "gay-for-pay." CovenantD 16:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That hyphenated phrase is a slang term that indicates someone is straight but just doing it for the money. Preference/persuasion is different from monetary gain. The debate is usually genes vs. environment; I haven't seen anyone argue that money makes you gay. --Chris Griswold 17:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hence, why I included the caveat "Possibly" and not "Definitely" Blisterfists 4:39 PM June 6, 2006

This isn't a list of possibly gay characters. That's called speculation. --Chris Griswold 21:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

unfortunately, there is a precedent, and therefore 'possibly' stays......if it weren't for the following characters, you might have a leg to stand on, but as it is, if these characters are in question, then why can't Roy be?: Amy Grinderbinder, Freddie Harper-Seaton, Harold Hedd, Omaha, Sparrow Pidgeon, Riot, Ruckus, two of which are directly above and below Roy's entry (Which I will continue to include, unless the rest are omitted)User:Blisterfists

Good point. --Chris Griswold 16:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's remove speculation

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Recently, we moved to removed Wonder Woman fromt his list when we decided we were relying too much on speculation and not enough on fact. Blisterfists (talk · contribs), in listing drug addict Roy Harper as possibly gay, has brought to my attention the fact that there are others on this list marked "possibly" or with a question mark. While Roy should not be on the list because he is clearly a heterosexual man who did some things for drug money, we need to address these other characters and either give details of strong implications that they are lesbian or gay or remove them from the list. --Chris Griswold 16:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Esperanza Leticia "Hopey" Glass - Locas, Has had a long relationship with the woman Maggie, as well as with men. (bisexual?)
The issue isn't whether she's bi or straight, it's whether she's bi or lez. 惑乱 分からん 19:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so what's the issue? Can you give tha deets? --Chris Griswold 19:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't read the complete run of Locas yet, I usually read the subsequent book when they're in at my local library, so I am a little lost in the continuity, but basically Hopey seems to be primarily attracted to women, both emotionally and sexually, but could enjoy a man as a sexual partner (she once got pregnant with one of her male friends). This contrasts to her on-and-off girlfriend Maggie, who seems mainly to be together with either Hopey or different males. Maybe there's other fans of the comics that are willing to elaborate more. 惑乱 分からん 21:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hopey should definitely be on the list, she is currently in a lesbian relationship, and has been in predominately lesbian relationships throughout the strip's run. Jaime plays fast and loose with sexuality, but there's no question that the one thing Hopey and Maggie are not is straight. Hiding Talk 22:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amy Grinderbinder - Preacher; in lust with Jesse Custer, possibly sexually interested in Tulip O'Hare, her best friend. (bisexual?)
  • Freddie "Tom O' Bedlam" Harper-Seaton - The Invisibles; homeless tramp and one of the greatest magicians in the history of the human species (possibly gay or bisexual)
  • Harold Hedd - Harold Hedd; underground Hippie comic book character into marijuana and free love (gay or bisexual?)
He's at least "gay", in the sense that he enjoys sucking dick.Proof - (Explicit picture) Granted, he's not as famous as Superman or Spider-Man, but he's possibly the most famous "underground" character from Canada. Not sure if he might be bi, though. The author lived his last time of life together with a wife and kid/s. 惑乱 分からん 19:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so is he every shown doing a chick? --Chris Griswold 19:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure, but he seems to "enjoy their presence"
1 + 2
(including both pages of the story, relatively mild for an underground comic). I guess Bi seems fine... (UTC)惑乱 分からん 21:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why is this character notable? He doesn't have an entry. --Chris Griswold 21:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Wikipedians clearly lack in the underground comix' historical department, I think... 惑乱 分からん 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From what I remember, Omaha is bisexual: She is shown having sexual relationships with both men and women. --Chris Griswold 16:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Allegedly self-identifies as a "bisexual lesbian", formerly involved with women, currently with a man. 惑乱 分からん 19:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so that's clear now. --Chris Griswold 19:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be in favor of Excluding Roy, if there weren't already characters who set the precedent.....either prove they are/aren't, or we're opening the floodgates for more (Roy's just the first)User:Blisterfists

OK, I want to ask you, then: Please cite an issue in which Roy's homosexuality is implied. And the whole "I did dudes for drugs" thing doesn't cut it; that doesn't make him gay, it makes him an addict. If you have an instance where he talks about that and gives some indication that he was into it, that's another thing. By your standard, we'll have to add Cassidy from Preacher because he gave an alleyway BJ for heroin. --Chris Griswold 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can't cite an example, because I don't think anything exists, but that doesn't change the fact that there are other characters where that can't be done either....
what I'm saying is this: If I can't provide enough evidence for Roy, cool, exclude him, but exclude every other character that doesn't have enough evidence too, don't just go knocking out Roy, because he's a High Profile Superhero, and the others are from indy comics, or strips that people don't really care much about......User:Blisterfists
It's not because he is a "High Profile Superhero". It's because your reasoning for his inclusion is faulty. He's not gay. --Chris Griswold 19:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blisterfists (talk · contribs), please don't remove these characters whhile they're still being discussed. You additionally removed Riot, and she is pretty clearly a lesbian, although Morrison and Millar can only strongly imply that in the series. --Chris Griswold 01:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Webcomics

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While I am in no way against the inclusion of comic strip characters on this list as some others were, I do feel that the recent edits adding webcomics characters to the mix has diluted the entry. Webcomics have a smaller audience and no quality requirements for publication, and therefore are simply not as notable. I move that we explicitly limit the article to print characters. --Chris Griswold 06:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. There might be a point in removing lesser known characters, unless they have a notable cult following, but I don't see the point in disqualifying a form of publishing, as a whole. 惑乱 分からん 13:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What about titles like Girl Genius or Supernatural Law, which (IMO) are notable comics, but which have adopted a policy of publishing primarily online and only later anthologizing in print? I agree with Wakuran that such online comics shouldn't be disqualified simply because of their medium, although I also agree that some sort of notability should be required of characters regardless of medium. Perhaps a multi-part requirement that the character either
  1. has made a series of appearances in a comic that has been in publication for over a year, or
  2. has been the subject of significant social commentary outside of the comics industry itself (to cover newsworthy one-shots), or
  3. was historically significant as the first or a prominent example of a GLBT character in some way, whose historical significance is independently verifiable (to cover important historical appearances for characters who were not ongoing).
That's just off the top of my head... maybe there's an existing policy on notability that could apply (and be enforced) here, which would allow genuinely important webcomics while screening minor and trivial characters. Peirigill 17:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I knew someone smart like Peirigill might come along with a better idea. I'm actually good with that. But I think we should also apply those guidelines to comic strip and underground or independent comic books. --Chris Griswold 19:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, something like that. I'd like the article to cover the medium broadly, not only american superheroes. Many furry and other sub-genre webcomics seem to have a relatively large, and very devoted following, and the most popular of those would certainly qualify. (Btw, I wonder whether Cherry Poptart should be sorted under P...) 惑乱 分からん 22:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, though like all things significance is open to a certain amount of interpretation. I've recently added several characters, some of whom are relatively minor, before I was aware of this policy recommendation. As far as I can tell, all of the ones I've added fit the first criterion, though in some cases (e.g., Brahma) just barely; nonetheless, I would not object if it were ruled that some or all of them were not of significant importance (though some I would argue that at least a few of my additions, such as Zoe Carter and Chelsea Chattan, are notable enough for inclusion). I would not consider myself an adequate judge of my own entries, but if the community at large holds that they should be removed, I will not dispute their redaction. Schol-R-LEA 7:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that Izzy Sinclair was identified as coming from a "comic strip." Seems like a useful distinction, especially in light of the concerns about the relative "weight" of strips, comic books, and webcomics. I've added a few comic strip characters, and added "comic strip" after the title of the strip, following the Izzy model. I'd like to suggest that for any format other than a serial comic book, like graphic novels (not counting compilations), webcomics, and comic strips, that we identify the medium following the name of the work in this manner. Peirigill 20:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, but I doubt both whether the distinguishing lines between different forms of publications are clear-cut, and if the distinction really is useful. 惑乱 分からん 20:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, no genre nor medium is "clear-cut." There will always be works that blur the lines. But publication through newspaper, magazine, and web formats are clear enough for most works. In any case, it's a recommendation for formatting, not a requirement, and one that would only be requested of works that were obviously different formats from serial magazines.
As for the usefulness of the distinction, there's one reason I'd like to see it... Why would anyone use this list for anything, anyway? Presumably, to locate gay characters to read about. Identifying the format makes it easier to track down the original material, especially for those characters whose entries have no blue links. This way, no one will walk away frustrated because they tried to track down a webcomic at their local comic book shop. Beyond that, no, it's not terribly useful, but then again, neither is this list. ;) Peirigill 17:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, but which descriptions should we give? Country of origin? Publishing form? (Franco-Belgian comics are often published in large A4-sized "albums", for instance.) Genre/drawing style? 惑乱 分からん 08:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(restting indent)I'd say whatever descriptions are useful or interesting. To me, it's not so important to know that a title is published in A4, for example. It might be interesting to know that a certain character is yaoi, or nonfictional. One thought that strikes me is that it might be interesting to observe trends, such as a greater willingness in webcomics to write gay characters than you'd find in newspaper strips, for example... or conversely, it's interesting to see how many gay characters get into the newspaper strips precisely because newspapers are likely to be the most conservative format, least likely to present something that might be controversial to the wider newspaper readership. Might you find similar interesting trends geographically, such as a greater presence of gay characters in Belgian comics than in Italian ones? I don't know. Is it useful? Probably, but maybe not enough to outweigh the increased page clutter. Peirigill 17:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Xavin

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I'm not so sure Xavin is either transgendered or bisexual. What Xavin does, he does out of concern for his people. The change in gender is not his own desire, but a way to achieve his goal, that of marrying Karolina.--Chris Griswold 22:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two questions: is this list supposed to include transgendered characters, in general? It's labeled as a GLB list, not a GLBT list. Either way is fine; I'd just like to know.
Re: Xavin: assuming that transgendered characters are in fact fair game for this list, what difference does motivation or willingness make? Gender transgression is gender transgression. (Of course, by this logic, you have to open the floodgates to straight drag queens and kings, gay-for-pay straight characters, etc., but that's the price you pay for being inclusive of transgender, which is a broad and very ill-defined category.)
Assuming, conversely, that this list is really about characters with same-sex attraction, then Xavin counts. S/he is attracted to the same gender as his/her biological gender. I wouldn't identify the character as "(lesbian)" but as "(straight male in a female body)" or some such. The sex would be gay sex, even if the gender identification was at odds with the body, and that seems like sufficient grounds for inclusion on this list. Peirigill 17:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just think the transgendered tag seems strange for Xavin because I've always understood GLBT issues to be about identity and personal choice. Cassidy the vampire isn't gay because he gave an alleyway blowjob for heroin; he wanted the heroin, not the blowjob. Xavin doesn't want to be female, but he appears as a female because he feels he has to for his people. The Skrulls are a race that do have gender, so it's not like he is androgenous. If you feel strongly about Xavin on the list, I will be alright with his inclusion because you're right: It is a GLBT-related situation. I think we should mention, however, why he does what he does. I wonder, though: By this logic, isn't Karolina Dean bisexual? --Chris Griswold 20:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"I've always understood GLBT issues to be about identity and personal choice." Yowza! I know what you're getting at, but "choice" is a hot-button word in gay politics.  ;) Personally, I agree with your example, and wouldn't include Cassidy or Arsenal on this list. I just wanted to point out that once you start accepting "transgender," you can easily be pushed to including all sorts of problematic and counterintuitive cases, since "transgressive" is almost by definition in defiance of clear-cut gender categorizations.
That's why I phrased a very specific question: does the female Xavin feel same-sex attraction? If so, then homosexuality is occurring, but it's transgendered homosexuality, and should be acknowledged as such rather than being labeled as simply "lesbian," which, as you rightly point out, implies a certain gender identity that doesn't obtain here. Karolina, however, seems to me to be a straightforward lesbian, since her attraction is to Xavin qua female, not to Xavin qua man in a woman's body. Peirigill 20:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
People choose whether to accept their identity and how much to embrace it.
I'm not getting anywhere near that argument! (Not that I don't agree, just that it's contentious - especially for transgendered folk who don't feel they have an innate gender identity, and resent the presumption of us males and females that they're just declining to embrace one. Oops, I guess I did get near it!)  ;) Peirigill 01:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Xavin is never female; he just appears female. Karolina is still involved with a male character, whatever his appearance.
If that's the case, then I'd say he doesn't belong on this page (although he's still technically transgender). I thought he was a Skrull, and that Skrulls were shapeshifters, not illusion-casters... are you sure he's never physically, biologically female? Poor Karolina, then... sounds like she's being deceived. Peirigill 01:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Gender seems prettty definite in the Annihilation: Super-Skrull miniseries.
I don't know what "qua" means. --Chris Griswold 00:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It means "in its role as" or "in its capacity as." It's used a lot in Scholastic/Catholic philosophy to distinguish between two aspects of a single entity, such as the communion wafer qua bread and qua flesh. See [[1]]. Peirigill 01:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have learned something.--Chris Griswold 06:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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