Talk:East Timor at the Olympics

Requested move 15 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Best to check the ngrams in a year or so to see if the trend towards the Portuguese name continues to sustain. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

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• East Timor at the Olympics → Timor-Leste at the Olympics
• East Timor at the 2002 Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2002 Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2004 Summer Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2004 Summer Olympics
• East Timor at the 2005 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2005 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2008 Summer Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2008 Summer Olympics
• East Timor at the 2008 Summer Paralympics → Timor-Leste at the 2008 Summer Paralympics
• East Timor at the 2009 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2009 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2010 Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2010 Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2010 Asian Para Games → Timor-Leste at the 2010 Asian Para Games
• East Timor at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics
• East Timor at the 2011 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2011 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2011 World Championships in Athletics → Timor-Leste at the 2011 World Championships in Athletics
• East Timor at the 2012 Summer Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2012 Summer Olympics
• East Timor at the 2012 Summer Paralympics → Timor-Leste at the 2012 Summer Paralympics
• East Timor at the 2013 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2013 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2013 World Championships in Athletics → Timor-Leste at the 2013 World Championships in Athletics
• East Timor at the 2014 Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2014 Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2014 Summer Youth Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2014 Summer Youth Olympics
• East Timor at the 2014 Winter Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2014 Winter Olympics
• East Timor at the 2015 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2015 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2016 Summer Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2016 Summer Olympics
• East Timor at the 2016 Summer Paralympics → Timor-Leste at the 2016 Summer Paralympics
• East Timor at the 2016 Winter Youth Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2016 Winter Youth Olympics
• East Timor at the 2017 Asian Indoor and Martial Arts Games → Timor-Leste at the 2017 Asian Indoor and Martial Arts Games
• East Timor at the 2017 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2017 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2017 World Aquatics Championships → Timor-Leste at the 2017 World Aquatics Championships
• East Timor at the 2018 Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2018 Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2018 Summer Youth Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2018 Summer Youth Olympics
• East Timor at the 2018 Winter Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2018 Winter Olympics
• East Timor at the 2019 Southeast Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the 2019 Southeast Asian Games
• East Timor at the 2019 World Aquatics Championships → Timor-Leste at the 2019 World Aquatics Championships
• East Timor at the 2020 Summer Olympics → Timor-Leste at the 2020 Summer Olympics
• East Timor at the Asian Games → Timor-Leste at the Asian Games
• East Timor at the Lusofonia Games → Timor-Leste at the Lusofonia Games
• East Timor at the Paralympics → Timor-Leste at the Paralympics
• East Timor at the World Athletics Championships → Timor-Leste at the World Athletics Championships

– East Timor is officially referred to (by pretty much everyone) as Timor-Leste, but there is a long history of not wanting to move it to that page (see the banners at Talk:East_Timor). However, following a discussion at WT:OLYMPICS we figured that a local consensus would be a reasonable exception given that every major sporting agency refers to the country as Timor-Leste (Olympics, Asian Games, FINA, etc). However, this move was overturned (we're apparently a "little-watched WikiProject") and so I am forced to seek a wider consensus. Primefac (talk) 09:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. First of all, thanks to Primefac for bringing this to RM following our discussion on the subject earlier. I had reverted a set of good faith moves based on the discussion above, on the grounds that I wanted it to be discussed at a full RM. On the wider issue of the naming of the country in general, the consensus at Talk:East Timor remains that we should use that name rather than the Portuguese one, based on WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. From an ngram search it is clear that usage of Timor-Leste is increasing at the expense of East Timor, and perhaps one day it will predominate, as we've previously seen with Myanmar and Kyiv, but for now "East Timor" still enjoys the lead. We can't be certain when or if the common term will change, however, and Ivory Coast is an example where common usage remains against the official name a long while after the change occurred. So, all other things being equal, our articles on the Olympic teams should be consistent with the overall country article and also named as "East Timor". I'd only suggest deviating from that if there were evidence of strong usage for "Timor-Leste" in the context of the Olympics specifically. Is that the case? There does seem to be a slight edge that way, but not enough to convince me a change is necessary away from the naming of th eparent article... and there are still recent sources: [1][2][3] . So overall I don't see a case for moving yet, per WP:COMMONNAME, although one might emerge in the future. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT, as our main article for this country is titled East Timor. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:43, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I don't think WP:CONSISTENT is a strong argument here, as the Olympic name of a country is allowed to deviate from its common name (e.g. Chinese Taipei at the Olympics). I think the important question is: Solely in the context of the Olympics, do independent sources refer to the country more often as "East Timor" or "Timor-Leste"? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support There is no requirement for the country's article and these articles to be consistent in the title. (See Chinese Taipei at the Olympics as cited earlier, or the Czech Republic's recent use of "Czechia" at the 2022 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships.) OP has demonstrated that, in the context of these competitions, "Timor-Leste" is the common name. 162 etc. (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Amakuru and Rreagan007. As one who has consistently supported the use of Kyiv over Kiev, which finally prevailed, as well as the use of Odesa over Odessa, which has not yet prevailed, I am sympathetic to the use of the form desired by the country itself. The move to "Kyiv" had to wait until stylebooks and the media came around to its use, which has not yet happened, as Amakuru pointed out in detail, in the case of Ivory Coast or in the case of East Timor. Ultimately, English exonyms for country names are common — Italy not Italia, Poland not Polska, Spain not España. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:12, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
• Strong Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Media sources continue to use Timor-Leste regularly and it is clear that Timor-Leste is the preferred name. Keeping the name at "East Timor" is not improving Wikipedia. Timor-Leste also appears to be the name most used by English speakers within the country and used at sporting events. There is clear desire for this change and it will inevitably come back if this is rejected. Seems like we are delaying the inevitable. Ngrams are less useful than recent English language coverage using the new name. Desertambition (talk) 01:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Inquirer: AFF: PH Azkals U-23 hold Timor Leste to draw
  • GMA Network: Philippines settles for 2-2 draw against Timor-Leste in AFF U-23 campaign opener
  • Manila Standard: PH Under-23 booters start ASEAN bid vs. Timor Leste
  • The Guardian: Alexander Downer called Timor-Leste an ‘open book’ for Australia in 2000, tribunal hears
  • CNN Philippines: Azkals U-23, Timor Leste settle for draw in AFF opener
  • Upstream Online: Trailblazing drilling campaign moves ahead in Timor-Leste
  • Inside the Games: Timor-Leste holds first-ever National Mixed Martial Arts Championships

Timor-Leste is the clear WP:COMMONNAME and should be used on this article. Desertambition (talk) 01:31, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support. East Timor competes as Timor Leste at international sporting events. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 05:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per consistency with East Timor. I also believe that East Timor is still the WP:COMMONNAME, but that is a discussion that should be add on that article, and if there is a consensus that the common name has changed then articles like these can be uncontroversially moved. BilledMammal (talk) 22:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and per observations of King of Hearts & 162 etc. Timor-Leste appears clearly to be the WP:COMMONNAME at least in the context of sporting events. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 13:40, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT. I see no reason to have a different name for the sports articles. Chinese Taipei is a unique case due to Chinese-Taiwan relations that simply doesn't apply to East Timor. If the article on the country changes then these can change too, but unless that happens I see no reason to deviate. I can find many sources using East Timor at the Olympics such as: ([4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]). As such, Timor-Leste is not the clear common name.--Spekkios (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CONSUB. BD2412 T 17:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'll clarify for those that are unfamiliar with WP:CONSUB (as I was) that it is an explanatory supplement, and doesn't have policy or guideline status. 162 etc. (talk) 18:22, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
  • @162 etc.: Yes, WP:CONSUB is an explanatory supplement. It explains by way of examples demonstrating common practices how WP:CONSISTENT (which is policy) should be applied in specific cases. BD2412 T 18:33, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

• Per WP:CONSISTENT: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." OP has cited reliable sources that support the proposed titles, so the move is justified. WP:CONSUB implies that these articles are a "subtopic" of East Timor, and that WP:TITLE should be set aside in the name of consistency, which I definitely disagree with. 162 etc. (talk) 18:46, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

  The chosen organizations generally reflect what the country asks that organization to call them; the rare possible exceptions (Taiwan) don't apply here. This makes them a non-independent source, and per WP:TITLE we should prefer independent sources, such as the BBC and the New York Times, both of which use "East Timor" in relation to the Olympics. BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support Timor-Leste competes at major sporting events as Timor-Leste, that should be respected. Of course, going forward 'East Timor at the 2020 Summer Olympics' etc. should always automatically revert. --MorrisIV (talk) 12:51, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.