User talk:ToBeFree
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Grammar
Note: This is not a recent discussion; the last message was written 6 years ago. However, I will keep it at the top of the talk page because I hope that 75.110.241.177 might come back and see it one day. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:56, 16 July 2018 & 22:44, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Previous discussion; already read by 75.110.241.177
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Main discussionThis section has been moved to the bottom of the talk page and merged with an update created under a new heading. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:30, 1 May 2018 (UTC) ...Yes, the reason I edited the page was to "change the meaning of the words." I effectively did just that. Grammarians do not talk about modifying sentences, which you said I should have been doing. It is always words which are modified. Despite this, you found my edit wanting in some mysterious fashion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.110.241.177 (talk) 14:33, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Bad tasteNote by ToBeFree, 14:59, 1 May 2018 (UTC): This seems to be about User talk:ToBeFree#Grammar and User talk:75.110.241.177 I find it in bad taste for you to dredge up discussion that I've had with other people, and then make remarks about them on my talk page. Clearly this is something you're set on doing. When you remark that I said a user should stop editing, you are wrong. I said this user should stop editing for grammar. You PROBABLY should know better than this, but English may be a barrier here, because you admit on your page that you speak only "advanced" English, and not near-perfect or professional (the other categories). In any case, if you think that you have the right to correct me in the fashion that you have, then you are mistaken. You are not a moderator here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.110.241.177 (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Main discussion, continued
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Apology to 75.110.241.177: Please read this if you ever come back
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Looking at this one month laterI'm sorry for my initial hostile reaction. I have been clearly uncivil here, and I should not have let this incident stress me out. I had originally quoted a personal attack towards you, which is definitely not okay, and I had even originally marked it in bold to emphasize which part of the quoted discussion I considered to be "relevant". Before you had read the text (I hope), I quickly removed the bold text from the quote and reworded it to be less aggressive. I have also added an explanation of my edit on this occassion -- something I should have done as the very first thing, and in a much more polite way. About two weeks later, I decided to remove the insulting quote from my talk page. Especially as I had complained about personal attacks between you and Khajidha in the discussion, my quote casted an embarrassingly bad light on the otherwise very friendly atmosphere I'm trying to establish here. That was a good first step, I think, but I feel that it has not been enough. I have noticed that you have not edited since this discussion, and that your last edit has been made one month ago to my talk page. This is worrying me, because I might have discouraged a well-intending user from editing, something which I had ironically been complaining about to you above. I hope that the sudden stop of editing from your IP address, 75.110.241.177, has only been caused by a change of IP address, or by registration of a username. Today, I would like to invite you to give Wikipedia, a huge project that can only continue to exist because of contributions like yours, a second chance. Specifically, I sincerly hope that you would like to give me, personally, a second chance as well. I'm sorry for having been rude in our discussion, and I will honestly do my best to prevent something like this from happening ever again. If you would like to come back, please take one of these cookies: They're still warm while you're reading this. No matter when you're reading this. They'll be waiting here, they will not be archived, and it would make me happy to hear from you again whenever you see this message. I sadly can't reach you via e-mail by leaving a message on your talk page, but maybe you're still reading Wikipedia as 75.110.241.177, and maybe you'll be looking at my talk page one day again. When you do, please let me know, even if you choose to refuse my apology. I know that I have messed up. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC) |
I contacted them, but the biography I wrote on wikipedia EN it's not completely the same. I mean, I don't understand because I need a copyright now I made changes to the one published on MTV !!! Thanks
Fabio
Criminal Party page
I used the same translation for MTV and wikipedia both. I sent them the current translation before. But I created the biography, not them. What do I have to do ? Thanks for helping me. --Fab1966 (talk) 10:29, 3 May 2019 (UTC) Fabio 3/5/19
- Hi Fab1966, have you given any "exclusive" rights to the website? Please carefully check your contract. Afterwards, if you did not give "exclusive" rights to anyone, wrote the text entirely yourself in your own words and would like to publish it on Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. Thanks
~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I wrote again the buography. What do you think about it ? Thanks --Fab1966 (talk) 16:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Fabio 6/5/19
- Hi Fab1966, thank you for the notification. Is there any update about the copyright? Have you sent an e-mail, for example? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
I could do it, but I didn't because I wrote it again. please, could you check it ? Thanks --Fab1966 (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC) Fabio 7/5/19
- Hmm. Fab1966, I am unsure about this. The changes can be found at Special:Diff/895808513. If you wrote the original text, we can ignore all "close paraphrasing" issues if you take a moment to send the e-mail.
If you really would like to submit the article for review without releasing any rights to the original text, you may use the blue "Submit your draft for review!" button. This way, another reviewer can have a look too. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I'll send the e mail. But in the declaration they need to mention a link. Which one need I to include, the MTV one ? Thanks --Fab1966 (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC) 7/5/19 Fabio
- Thank you, that solves the whole problem.
Fab1966, for the text at Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries, the "URL of the content" is the website that you have submitted your text to. If you wrote your text for MTV, it is the MTV page, for example https://mtvrock.com/2016/12/30/criminal-party/ . The "Exact URL of the page or file on Wikipedia" is https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fab1966/sandbox&oldid=893329948 . ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I just the sent the declaration of the owner of the biography. What need I to publish it ? Thanks --Fab1966 (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2019 (UTC)Fabio 8/5/19
- Fab1966: Sorry, I am not sure if I understand your message correctly. Have you sent the e-mail to permissions-en
wikimedia.org? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:23, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes --Fab1966 (talk) 19:25, 8 May 2019 (UTC) Fabio 8/7/19
- Perfect, Fab1966, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. We need to wait for an answer now. This can take about 50 days. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Bumping thread for 60 days. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Fab1966: If you would like me to submit the draft for review as soon as the e-mail has been read, please tell me "I would like to submit the draft for review as soon as possible" below. I will then wait and later do this for you. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Of course yes, I would like to submit the draft for review as soon as possible Thanks --Fab1966 (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Fabio 9/5/19
Bumping thread for 1000 days. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
- Note to self: Do this when the OTRS ticket is resolved: Special:Diff/896292830 ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I sent the permission as you suggested. They asked for common license, that of course I sent, but the they answered in the following way: Dear Fabio Rapisarda, CC BY-SA 4.0 is not compatible with Wikipedia's license (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Compatible_license). Additionally, I am still not able to verify that you are the copyright holder. (See directions in my previous message.)
Yours sincerely, [...] Of couse, now i don't know how to solve the problem. Please could you help me ? Thanks
fabio — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- OTRS member's signature removed ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Fab1966, that's unfortunate.
- Per our legal disclaimer, I can't say "this is okay". I can only point out possible issues, like close paraphrasing, but I can not say "this is fine".
- Special:Diff/895808513 seems to indicate that the new text is still based on the MTVROCK article, with the wording changed but the structure unchanged. This is not necessarily a problem, but also probably not ideal. If you hadn't written the MTVROCK article, I would probably suggest deleting the whole text, and writing it from scratch in your own words. As these are your own words, I am unsure how to continue. Is there really no way for you to ask the MTVROCK website owner to verify your authorship? Maybe the MTVROCK website owner can send a similar e-mail to Wikipedia? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:25, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
I wrote the biography with own words. I changed something. If you read the MTV biography and the wikipedia one, they are not the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- Fab1966, I do believe you.
However, the OTRS volunteer has expressed doubt. Can you ask the administrator of MTVROCK to add a sentence to the MTVROCK page? "This article has been written by Wikipedia user Fab1966 and is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0 license", or something similar? If I understand correctly, you have also received an e-mail with more detailled instructions. There does not seem to be anything I personally can do here at the moment. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging JJMC89 per Special:Diff/897865501, maybe he can confirm my interpretation. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, if you read the new version of the biography, it's not same of the one published by MTV rock. I don't understand because I need a license. https://mtvrock.com/criminal-party/ Thanks
Fabio — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- Fab1966, my original concern was close paraphrasing. When I expressed this concern, I did not know that you have written the MTVROCK article yourself.
- If I understand correctly, Wikipedia has still not received verification for your authorship. For this reason, the original Wikipedia article text may be deleted as a suspected copyright violation.
- In Special:Diff/895808513, you have modified the closely paraphrased text. It is now less closely paraphrased.
- I do not know if this is sufficient. I would prefer clarity about this copyright issue.
- I can not give legal advice. I can only point out potential problems. This may be a problem. I do not know. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:46, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
I sent them the Creatice Common license 4.0 (as they suggested), but they wrote me it wasn't fine. Now I don't really know what to do. I don't understand what they need. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- Fab1966, there are multiple different "Creative Commons" licenses. Please compare these four licenses:
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Creative Commons Attribution 4.0: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 4.0: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/
- You have likely been asked to use one of the green licenses (
), not the red one (
).
- If you have questions about an e-mail sent to you, please respond to the e-mail to ask your questions. Please respond via e-mail that you do not understand what to do next. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, I attached the Creative common 4.0 link in the Criminal Party's page. Please, could you check if it's correct and maybe send it for the approval ? Thanks Fabio
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Fab1966, that's sadly not what I meant. You do not need to add this text to the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia articles are automatically published under a free license.
- I meant: Could you add the text "This article has been written by Wikipedia user Fab1966 and is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0 license"
- to the following page? https://mtvrock.com/criminal-party/
- Thank you very much in advance. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I could try. It doesn't depends on me. Can you suggest an alternative ? Thanks Fabio
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fab1966 (talk • contribs) 09:47, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Fab1966, I sadly can't think of a good alternative. Please do try. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
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The Citation Barnstar |
This is belated, but I owe a debt of gratitude to ToBeFree for extensive assistance with some difficult citation issues. Much appreciated! Astro3.142 (talk) 18:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC) |
Hi Astro3.142, this is very kind, thank you very much – and of course you're welcome. Good luck with the further development of the article; I'm currently a bit busy but may later have a look at the new "help me" request. Someone else will likely be faster than me, though. I have skimmed the new conversation at Talk:Kai Staats; it's nice to see that Huon has joined us there.
Have a nice evening*
*your timezone may vary ;) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
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The Citation Barnstar |
Highly informative feedback on citations and sources, and very patient when explaining complicated policies. Thank you. Astro3.142 (talk) 17:35, 9 May 2019 (UTC) |
Two of them, that's a novelty. You're welcome, and thank you very much for the feedback.
- Some editors may wonder what the purpose of donating and receiving immaterial awards is. In my opinion, these awards are one of the very few opportunities for the Wikipedia community to give something back to its volunteer members. There is a reason that the relevant WikiProject is called "WikiProject Editor Retention". The encyclopedia would long have died if its editors didn't have the feeling of receiving something back for their work. Editors who frustratedly leave the project often seem to do so not least because of a lack of appreciation for their invested time.
- This may also explain why the deletion of articles can be seen as being harmful to the project, and – that's the inevitable consequence of the reasoning, if it is correct – why less moral scruples seem to be involved in the deletion of paid contributions.
- We both now got rewarded for our work, and I hope that your compensation contract also encompasses the time you have spent to analyze and carefully adhere to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Your approach to editing and discussion deserves to be commended, and it positively distinguishes you from the apparent majority of paid editors. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:16, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Difficult article ...
Greetings ToBeFree,
You've spent so much time helping me out on Talk:Kai Staats that I wanted to stop by and address my primary motivation for accepting this editing job. You could probably extract this If you read the lengthy discussion on that page, but I'll save you some time here. I see you have a BSc in EE. Looked at EE myself but ended up in physics. Been an amateur astronomer for a long time so, like you, I have some grasp of what research the Staats article is talking about and felt qualified to take on that article.
I noticed you alluded to Staats being "(barely?) notable". I get that. When he came to me with a request to write that article I cautioned him about the notability criteria and explained that, even if we did this article, there's no guarantee some editor would object on the basis of notability and nominate the page for deletion. I also explained that I would need to disclose the fact that this was a paid article, and how that would raise certain flags prompting closer scrutiny.
He was OK with all that. So I told him to compile a list of verifiable sources I could use in the article. Some time later he sent me an extensive spreadsheet with way more than I needed or could actually use (tons of third party sources for example). But when I filtered out the sources I couldn't use, I was left with what I felt was an impressive body of work, both in science and film. And so I accepted the job.
I like your suggestion that maybe it's just best to leave some [third-party source needed] flags unchallenged. I see those flags all over Wiki, even on some very old articles. Staats may just have to accept that reality, but I'm going to give this one more shot with a response to you on his talk page. I think this time I've expressed my position more clearly regarding my use of those primary sources. I'll look forward to your (or Spintendo's) response.
Thanks again. Astro3.142 (talk) 18:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Greetings Astro3.142,
- Thank you for this message. It may be the first time that I gain any insight into the decision making process behind accepting compensation for one's work on Wikipedia. I definitely appreciate and respect your decision, but I couldn't do this. I have seen an administrator fall; I have seen a destiny destroyed for what was apparently not even a large amount of money.
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct of Mister Wiki editors, for 80 dollars per Special:Diff/818741848 - Also see my response above and at Talk:Kai Staats.
~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- I see your point ToBeFree, and again want to thank you for the time you've spent on this issue. I have on occasion regretted taking this job, and doubt I'll ever take another like it. That's a sad and scary story about TonyBallioni et.al. you linked me to. I totally see why editors tread lightly in these areas.
- Staats had to convince me he was notable enough to have an article, and I tried to verify that objectively. First I reread the notability guidelines. Then I scanned several dozen biographical articles about living persons in science/writing/film, and I saw many subjects who were (in my opinion) "less notable", so I agreed to take the job. Notability spans a spectrum of course, and there's always going to be a "gray area" where, statistically, half the editors agree and half disagree. I understood Staats would be near that point, but I still maintain he's on the notable side.
- Regarding the ongoing citation issue on Talk:Kai Staats, I'll be responding to your last comment later today. Thanks again. Astro3.142 (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
Cloudification
Hello,
my first submission was rejected. Can you help me what need to be changed pls?
Thx
Bedrich — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vavrena (talk • contribs) 13:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Vavrena, thank you for your submission. Where did you get the information for the article from? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Advice on additional actions
Hi ToBeFree,
Thank you for your help in editing David Levy article to be neutral. There still seems to be a template that states, "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject." What can be done to remove this template?
Thank you, (always learning KMH1011)Kmh1011 (talk) 05:24, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Kmh1011, thank you very much for taking the time to fix neutrality issues and to add citations in Special:Diff/898669066.
- I think a good next step can be adding a message at Talk:David_Levy_(psychologist)#Autobiography. If you explain that you have done your best to solve issues in the article, and link to Special:Diff/898669066 so that others can quickly see your improvements, the other editors may agree that the "COI" template should be removed. I'd love to hear about Ruff tuff cream puff's opinion on this matter, too, as she has originally added the "autobiography" tag in Special:Diff/897051145.
- Also feel free to provide a link to my message here, User talk:ToBeFree#Advice on additional actions.
- Wikipedia can sometimes be pretty complicated. Don't worry if something is confusing at first.
~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hello, yes sorry for the hassle. The photograph on the article (File:Cropped Photo for Wikipedia Profile David Levy.jpg) was uploaded to Commons by User:Kmh1011 who also claimed to be "David Levy" according to the redlink. Mostly I deal with photos at Commons, as it is important to check licensing statuses due to the rather large problem of copyright violations. As per routine, was checking if the uploader is the person who created the image or had permission to license it. Due to the redlink there, assumed that "David Levy" is both the person in the photo and the person who created it, which is fine, but it raised another problem; is the person in the biographical article actually editing it, raising conflict of interest concerns. I have done this with literally hundreds of articles with similar problems, it is nothing personal. As long as the statements in the article are sourced and fluffery is kept to a minimum, I have no problem with the COI tag being removed. Thanks and sorry again for the headache! Ruff tuff cream puff (talk) 05:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- No worries, Ruff tuff cream puff, thank you very much for the explanation.
- I have copied the message to Talk:David_Levy_(psychologist)#Autobiography. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:54, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- No worries, Ruff tuff cream puff, thank you very much for the explanation.
Frank Millet Edits
Thanks for your response. I am not a Wikipedia expert, but a first time editor. I am however a Millet Scholar. I edited the incorrect kids section from 3 as it was to the 4 that the Millet's had and the one they lost Edwin. I am also a bit knowledgeable in the use of the English language, hence my carefully worded but hopefully clear comments about the Homosexuality claims made by the prior author. He is really one of very few who agree with his claims about Millet. But to support the comments with third party citations, which I agree are important, as well as personal scholarly expertise, I am attaching two quick items below. Possibly as a Wikipedia expert you can attach them appropriately. One is the Wikipedia citation and the other is from The History of English.
Mgsullivan (talk) 16:47, 16 May 2019 (UTC)Michael SullivanMgsullivan (talk) 16:47, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
My comment:
"It should be noted that in the 19th century language and personal relationships between people of the same gender were often expressed in language that by today's standards we would sexualize when in fact there was often no overt sexual behavior, homosexual or otherwise. Words used in communications during the 19th century and prior, were often elaborate and intimate in nature between close associates, unlike today's language which is comprised of short, often curt and simple words."
Please see: Romantic Friendship in Wikipedia as one supporting citation for my comments and the History of English under literary developments as a second citation.
A romantic friendship, passionate friendship, or affectionate friendship is a very close but typically non-sexual relationship between friends, often involving a degree of physical closeness beyond that which is common in the contemporary Western societies. It may include for example holding hands, cuddling, hugging, kissing, giving massages, and sharing a bed, or co-sleeping, without sexual intercourse or other physical sexual expression. In historical scholarship, the term may be used to describe a very close relationship between people of the same sex during a period of history when homosexuality did not exist as a social category. In this regard, the term was coined in the later 20th century in order to retrospectively describe a type of relationship which until the mid-19th century had been considered unremarkable but since the second half of the 19th century had become more rare as physical intimacy between non-sexual partners came to be regarded with anxiety.[1] Romantic friendship between women in Europe and North America became especially prevalent in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, with the simultaneous emergence of female education and a new rhetoric of sexual difference.[2]
And
https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/history_late_modern.html
Literary Developments
A vast number of novels (of varying quality and literary value) were published in the 19th Century to satisfy the apparently insatiable appetite of Victorian Britain for romantic stories, ranging from the sublimity of Jane Austen’s works to the florid excesses and hackneyed phrasing typified by Edward Bulwer-Lytton’s famous opening lines “It was a dark and stormy night...” Due to the strictures of prudish Victorian society, an inventive list of euphemisms were popularized for body parts and other unmentionable concepts, a prudery perhaps epitomized by Thomas Bowdler’s “bowdlerization” of the works of Shakespeare in which offending words like strumpet, whore, devil, etc, were removed or toned down.
The early 19th century language of Jane Austen appears to all intents and purposes to be quite modern in vocabulary, grammar and style, but it hides some subtle distinctions in meaning which have since been lost (e.g. compliment usually meant merely polite or conventional praise; inmate connoted an inhabitant of any sort rather than a prisoner; genius was a general word for intelligence, and did not suggest exceptional prowess; regard encompassed a feeling of genuine affection; irritation did not carry its modern negative connotation, merely excitement; grateful could also mean gratifying; to lounge meant to stroll rather than to sit or slouch; to essay mean to attempt something; etc). To Austen, and other writers of her generation, correct grammar and style (i.e. "correct" according to the dictates of Robert Lowth's "Grammar") were important social markers, and the use of non-standard vocabulary or grammar would have been seen as a mark of vulgarity to be avoided at all costs.
New ideas, new concepts and new words were introduced in the early science fiction and speculative fiction novels of Mary Shelley, Jules Verne and H.G. Wells. Lewis Carroll began to experiment with invented words (particularly blended or "portmanteau" words) in poems like “Jabberwocky” (1872). Chortle and galumph are two words from the poem that made the jump to everyday English, but the work is jam-packed with nonsense words as may be seen from its first few lines: “Twas brillig, and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: / All mimsy were the borogoves, / And the mome raths outgrabe”).
Mgsullivan, I am a volunteer and you are throwing a huge block of text at me. That doesn't work, sorry, no. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:48, 16 May 2019 (UTC)- I do note that policy pages are basically blocks of text, so I can't really answer that. Better reply incoming. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- Mgsullivan, thank you very much for providing these citations. If I understand correctly, you seem to have personally interpreted the source, in sentences such as:
So to characterize Frank Millet in homosexual or bisexual terms maybe overstating the relationships since it is clearly documented that Millet had a long lasting and happy marriage with his wife Elizabeth ("Lily").
- – Special:Diff/897371448, Emphasis mine. This appears to be original research and is not actually given by the source.
- Please also note that Wikipedia articles are not a reliable source, as anyone can edit them. For this reason, we can not cite Wikipedia articles to prove statements in other articles. This could otherwise quickly result in a "reference loop" if two articles contain incorrect information and reference each other. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- Mgsullivan, there may be a part of your edit that can be reliably verified from a secondary source: The number of children, their names, and their biography. You seem to have access to better sources than the article currently is built upon. I think we should ignore the English language interpretation above; let's focus on the possibly objectively wrong part of the article instead.
- Wikipedia encourages you to be bold when editing. You are absolutely welcome to edit the article again, adding a reference with the "Cite" button of the editor. The links in my welcome message may help, and you may alternatively be interested in trying The Wikipedia Adventure, depending on which learning style you personally prefer.
- If you are unsure how or if to proceed, feel free to add a message to the talk page of the article, Talk:Francis Davis Millet. For discussion about the number of children, feel free to add a comment to the "Number of children" section of the talk page. For a new topic, the "New section" button at the top of the page can be used.
- Thank you very much in advance for your correction, and enjoy editing Wikipedia.
~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:50, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
What about my corrections?
To Be Free you seem to be quite controlling for a "volunteer" and this system seems to be substantially complicated for corrections. As a Francis Davis Millet Scholar I made three corrections sometime ago and you asked for citations and then seem to have ignored them with you last comment being "these 'Look' like opinions." I also provided substantial content and context to my edits, and your comment was that as a volunteer it was too much for you to handle. Well I don't believe as a volunteer you have both the right or even the responsibility on an open source encyclopedia to block content from being posted because you don't want to deal with too much content or don't like the citations provided, let the users make the corrections if any are needed. So for example, on the simple edit of the fact that Wikipedia has it Wrong as to the number of Millet's children. There were 4 not 3 as it still shows. I provided both the genealogy and the citation to that genealogy and you continue to block its from being published as the correction I submitted. As to the more controversial correction of the sexual mores of the 19th century being interpreted by the current mores of the 21st century. I provided substantial content and context and the simple citations to two easily available sources. ONE being the currently posted Wikipedia on Romantic Friendship and the other to the History of the English Language. Whatever you think about it ....you don't have the responsibility or the right to block my posts from being uploaded to the Millet Wikipedia page. Let it post. Michael S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgsullivan (talk • contribs) 21:31, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Mgsullivan, nice to meet you again. Please disregard my initial "volunteer" comment, which I have quickly struck through above. If I'm asking you to take the time to read guidelines, I should not deny taking time to explain questions about them. My "volunteer" comment was bad; I normally don't react like this.
- Your contribution is not lost; it can be found at Special:Diff/897371448. This was a large edit that seems to be problematic, due to its lack of reliable references.
- Above, you have provided two references for your edits. One of them is a Wikipedia article; we can't use Wikipedia articles as a reference. The community has agreed upon a "Wikipedia:Verifiability" policy, and one part of this policy is called "WP:REFLOOP". This part describes why using other Wikipedia articles as a reference is not a good idea.
- Please correct me if I am wrong, but none of the two sources seems to be directly related to Francis Davis Millet. Using these sources for your specific edit seems to be personal interpretation. The community has agreed upon a "Wikipedia:No original research" policy. This policy contains a section called "WP:SYNTH", prohibiting the combination of multiple sources to reach a conclusion that none of the sources actually says.
- That all said, I agree that there is a part of your edit that we should definitely implement as soon as possible: We should indeed fix the number of children if it is wrong. If you can provide a reliable source for the existence of the fourth child, please do so. Let's fix the factual error with better sources. And let's ignore the "Romantic Friendship"/"History of the English Language" part for now: We can do this step by step. We do not need to fix everything at once; let's focus on the number of children first.
- Feel free to provide references at Talk:Francis_Davis_Millet#Number_of_children. I can't find the "citation to the genealogy" in Special:Diff/897371448.
- Thank you very much in advance. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
https://www.geni.com/people/Francis-Millet/320389428450004739
Thanks for your response, as to the kids, I've added the geni.com citation shown above from their genealogy website again where I think it properly goes.
I know this is a cop out on my part, but I really am not in a position to try and take all the time it will take me to become proficient with Wikipedia editing. As I look at the system it just is too complicated for the time it will take and any further editing on my part, but I appreciate the necessity to keep content correct. I've never made an edit previously and probably never will again, since this is really the only area in which I have info to contribute. So if I've made the citation edit wrong again, I'm sorry but it is above, and possibly you or someone else can make it. If you look at Ancestry.com they have the same info as geni.com on live births, they do speculate on a 5th pregnancy which did not come to live birth. But none of the Millet scholars have any data on a 5th, in family records or other records but Edwin's birth and death at 4 months are certain and geni.com has it right. Thanks.
As to the several other language edits I made, most of them were just grammatical or for clarity and I think with general reading they will make the section better. So they can be used or not.
As to the sexual mores question. I'll just leave it too, since I understand the circular content challenges by citing Wikipedia on Romantic Friendship, someone else may provide good citations or possibly a forum, if there is one, could comment on the Romantic Friendship issues and the different views between now and the 19th century. Let me finish with the thought that the current content is disparaging to Frank Millet and decedents since the gentleman who posted the current content and his conclusions from his work as cited are also really just "personal opinions" as well. The homosexual relationship comments have no real foundation in documented fact from Millet papers and are really the author's personally "reading into history" his own opinions, even though he may cite his own writing, to the satisfaction of the Wikipedia citation standards. So I would suggest a compromise. JUST remove that paragraph from the Millet page, it really is just opinion as it currently stands and really adds nothing of merit to the history of the artist and his significant public contributions. It ought to be dropped.
Thank you for your time. I won't be able to do more for now. Hope this is enough.
- Hi Mgsullivan, thank you for the detailled analysis. You seem to have correctly uncovered a conflict of interest there, and I have removed the contested paragraph. My responses can be found here:
- Talk:Francis_Davis_Millet#Number_of_children (Geni.com and Ancestry.com sadly seem to be generally unreliable)
- Talk:Francis_Davis_Millet#Homosexuality (done as requested)
- Feel free to add more references to the first section, or comments to the second one.
~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
To Be Free: I do have to chuckle about Wikipedia finding the worlds largest Geneaology resource to be "unreliable" and I know I said I was going to bow out....but the Edwin Millet's death not being recognized is troubling to me so, I hope the two new citations will satisfy the quirky rules of Wikipedia. Hopefully the Central Cemetery in East Bridgewater will do well enough...and Ms. Schafer's book, Soldier of Fortune will be considered acceptable as well. She was a decedent of Frank Millet.
Michael S.
Soon Millet’s family life was marred by an unexpected personal tragedy when Lily, Kate and the new baby contracted diphtheria.87 Lily and Kate recovered, but four-month old Edwin died on November 15.88 The loss of his infant son may have convinced Millet that it was time for a change in his life.
87 Booth and Millet, Chapter 6, p. 5, JAPM/AAA Reel 1100 note that Mrs. Millet, Kate and young Edwin contracted diphtheria. See also Sharpey-Schafer, Soldier of Fortune. p. 60; and Francis Davis
88 Birth and death dates for Edwin Austin Millet have been provided by the Central Cemetery in East Bridgewater, Massachusetts, where the Millet family burial plot is located.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgsullivan (talk • contribs) 23:53, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Mgsullivan, where do these numbers (87, 88) come from?
~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
They are the footnote citations from Gina D'Angelo's Thesis, as listed below, but are not relevant in this case other than they provide context to the citations to the birth and death of Edwin Millet at 4 months old, which are relevant to the issue at hand, that being if there were 3 or 4 children. There were 4 and Edwin died at 4 and is buried in Mass. But I wasn't sure if the cemetery note was enough since the two leading genealogy websites in the world were considered unreliable. So I also provided the Soldier of Fortune citation. But here is the full citation for Gina's Dissertation if you want that as well. Sincerely, Michael S.
FRANCIS DAVIS MILLET - THE EARLY YEARS OF
“ A COSMOPOLITAN YANKEE,” 1846-1884
Unpublished Dissertation at the City
University of New York, 2004
by
Gina M. D ’Angelo
Volume I, pg. 226
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgsullivan (talk • contribs) 11:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Mgsullivan, I am sorry to disappoint you again. This must be a horrible first Wikipedia experience. I hope that, at least, this proves that Wikipedia – while making no guarantee of validity – is actually a very careful community in this regard. This is why people do trust Wikipedia, and we do our best to maintain its good reputation.
- If I understand correctly, there are two major issues with the proposed citation.
- You need to have actually read the proposed source and have gotten your information from it; relying on indirect citations is not sufficient (WP:SAYWHERE, part of Wikipedia's guideline about citing sources)
- The source needs to have been published; "unpublished" sources are not eligible for Wikipedia articles (WP:SOURCE, part of Wikipedia's verifiability policy)
- The second point also seems to apply to the Central Cemetry citation, not just the dissertation. I think that the main issue with unpublished "reliable" sources is the lack of verifiability, not a lack of reliability. There is no reasonable way for other readers of this international encyclopedia to verify the validity of an unpublished source. I trust you, but imagine I didn't. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:03, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Edwin Millet Death and Yes it has been a sad experience
Sir: I have read the thesis, more than 500 pages of it and so can anyone if they want to go to ProQuest which is the Academic source for most Dissertations published in the US and most of the world. Generally, no PhD Thesis is "published" in the terms you are thinking. But they are publicly available at most major libraries around the world through ProQuest. Just type in the Title and author and you will find it. And anyone can buy a copy of Soldier of Fortune, on Amazon etc. and they can read that too. I also provided the Cemetery information and anyone who is interested can find the info on the family through any one of a number of cemetery web search sites. Or they can call the Cemetery in Mass. which is why I provided the info necessary. Also, I have tried to keep my own Millet scholarship out of the discussion since it seems that personal research and knowledge is also suspect in the Wikipedia sources.
So yes, this has been a very bad experience. In the future as both a professional communications/PR executive, for decades, and a Frank Millet Scholar, I will unfortunately have to carefully consider what seems to be a very suspect system and irrationally approved sources for the Wikipedia topics I read going forward.
The simple bottom line for this experience is that I now understand better how false information can so easily appear in Wikipedia and how hard it is to correct it once it is published. Sadly, Edwin Austin Millet will not be recognized as having lived or died in the "ever living internet." I can only imagine the immensity of poor or completely incorrect information that will live on forever in the internet encyclopedia that is Wikipedia.
It shows that not all things benefit from open-source wide area collaboration, as opposed to carefully researched and edited material gathered by trained and skilled individuals and teams that have often spent a lifetime, certainly a career, on finding and preserving the facts in a subject area.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgsullivan (talk • contribs) 18:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Mgsullivan, I seem to have misunderstood the word "unpublished" in your citation. Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, part of Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline,
Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by third parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources. Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence.
- As a completed, publicly available PhD thesis, and as a secondary source in this regard, we can cite Gina M D'Angelo's thesis. I also searched the indirectly cited book for "Edwin" on Google Books and included a direct quote in the Wikipedia citation, as far as Google Books allowed me to. You can find the implemented edit at Special:Diff/898926617.
- Fixing or removing incorrect information is important; adding new information needs to be done with care. Or, in other words,
All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[2] the contribution.[3]
[...]
Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source.
— WP:BURDEN- Whenever you feel that false information appears in Wikipedia and there is no reliable inline citation that currently supports it, you may remove it, mentioning WP:BURDEN in your edit summary.
- Replacing it by something else, however, requires reliable sources. Bad experiences have led to the creation of the "perennial sources" list; you seem to have, at one point, proposed to use some "generally unreliable" sources from that list. I am unsure if your impression about Wikipedia's accuracy would be better if I had accepted the usage of such sources.
- If there is really still incorrect information present in the article, please do remove it, or ask me to remove it.
- There have been many other attempts to create a large online encyclopedia, but projects such as Citizendium have failed. While it does have its problems, the "anyone can edit" philosophy is tried and trusted. Wikipedia's core content policies are meant to ensure exactly the values that we both uphold.
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Edwin Edit
Thank you. The edit works. Michael — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgsullivan (talk • contribs) 00:06, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
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15:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi ToBeFree, thank you for your feedback on my first wikipedia page about EQS Group. I worked on the draft based on your recommendations. Would you mind checking the page again? Draft:EQS Group
Thank you Alexander