Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV	Resolved	Avi8tor (t)	17 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 15 hours
Norse Deity pages	In Progress	Dots321 (t)	9 days, 13 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	20 hours	Dots321 (t)	16 hours
List of South Korean girl groups	Closed	98Tigerius (t)	9 days, 7 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 22 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 22 hours
Benevolent dictatorship	In Progress	Banedon (t)	8 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	20 hours	Banedon (t)	6 hours
Talk:Taylor Swift	Closed	Gsgdd (t)	8 days, 5 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	7 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	7 days, 15 hours
Kylie Minogue	In Progress	PHShanghai (t)	5 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	20 hours
African diaspora	Closed	Kyogul (t)	2 days, 14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 08:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Ashleigh Barty

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Sharyn4939 on 05:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Ashleigh Barty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Sharyn4939 (talk · contribs) WWGB (talk · contribs) Fyunck(click) (talk · contribs) Nigos (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Regarding the (correct) Nationality description of "Indigenous Australian". The word "Indigenous" keeps getting removed when describing her ethnicity. This is significant because Ashleigh identifies as an Aboriginal person and is recognised as such by the Aboriginal community. She is not described as an Indigenous Australian anywhere on the page - her father is - but mention is only made to her background. This is not accurate and it is completely inappropriate that non Indigenous people keep redefining the identity of an Aboriginal person. The Aboriginal community has perceived this ongoing edit war as a racist attack to attempt to obscure her Aboriginal identity. It is an example of non Indigenous people cleansing content to suit their own comfort level of race. Wikipedia should not be a platform governed by White Privilege, there is no room for racism here. User Nigos closed down my previous attempt at conflict resolution stating I did not provide a source - which I have done - and that accusations of racism were "borderline attack" - I'm not sure how you would describe the behaviour of non Indigenous editors in seeking to obscure a successful Aboriginal person's race except as racist. Furthermore Nigos seems to be basing stated opinion on the simple version of the page and not the comprehensive page that I referenced in the dispute - guess Nigos is using a mobile phone to make judgements to close disputes. The talk page has very clear and well articulated reasons why Ashleigh should be referred to as an Indigenous Australian and many pages of other Indigenous Australians use similar descriptive language prominently. Everyone who is coming into this discussion with an Aboriginal voice or perspective is being shut down. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk page, provided link to news article which outlines how Aboriginal people see the edit war - Digital Genocide is the title of the Welcome to Country article on the subject. How do you think we can help? To resolve the ongoing stalemate over the use of the word "Indigenous". This edit war has been going on for months and it is not going to stop - the Aboriginal community are offended by the digital ethnic cleansing at the hands of non Indigenous editors. Summary of dispute by WWGB Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Barty is notable for being a top tennis player. While it is undeniable that Barty is indigenous, that is not the reason for her notability. WWGB (talk) 05:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion in the summary of dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC) WGB : You keep talking about the lead but I have said this numerous times, I will try again. Nowhere in the article does it say she is an Indigenous Australian. Furthermore your assessment of the relevance to the notability of her achievement is racially biased based on your own comprehension of the issue. You might not fathom why this is notable and that is understandable if you are not well educated in Indigenous Australian issues. But your resistance to trying to understand the inappropriateness of your obstructive actions is troubling. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 06:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)) You showed a link to an article on Welcome to country, which called Wikipedians "colonists" who commit "digital genocide". I think this is a borderline personal attack. On W:Simple:Talk:Ashleigh Barty, you claimed it wad a source, when it seemed to be a personal commentary. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 08:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC) By the way, there are 13 mentions of the word "indigenous" in the article. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 08:25, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Nigos A "borderline personal attack"... by an Indigenous Media outlet 3 months ago? How is that exactly? I'm not being difficult, I just can't join the dots on that. I provided that link as evidence of my statement about how the Aboriginal community perceives this issue, I assumed that is what you meant when you said the onus was on me..or did you mean that I needed to provide evidence of her Aboriginality? (surely not?) Do you think that whenever racial bias is called out it is to be characterised as a personal attack, because this is the second time you have used that phrase. Are you familiar with the history of genocide in Australia? Would you like me to outline the history and context of the article? I believe that an issue in this dispute is that the people who are resistant to the addition of the word "Indigenous" are not very well educated or informed on Aboriginal history, culture or contemporary issues. In this I would be more than happy to explain why so many people have tried to edit this page over the last 3 months, and why it isn't going to stop until Ash is properly described as an Indigenous or Aboriginal Australian. My family is Bundjalung and I am very much involved in contemporary Aboriginal issues. I worked for many years as a cultural awareness facilitator within both the Australian Federal and NSW State Government. I was the National Project Manager of Cultural Awareness within the Department of Employment, Education and Training so I am qualified to assist in the elevation of cultural sensitivity. I would also love it if someone could help me understand why so many users object to the term Indigenous Australian, and why this edit war has gone on for so long. I understand the passion and indignation of Aboriginal people and their allies who want to see the word included. If not racism, then what is the motivation of the many users who keep expunging her cultural identity? Plenty of prominent Indigenous people on Wikipedia have their cultural identity stated in the first couple of sentences, so it is not a stretch that this person could as well, why the fuss? The number of times "Indigenous" is used is not the issue, and I refer you back to the dispute I have outlined above. Thank you (Sharyn4939 (talk) 10:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC)) You can't just assume that the people you aren't happy with are "modern-day colonisers". We don't even know where they actually are. I haven't fully read the manual of style, but apparently there is this MOS:ETHNICITY. The info can be added to the infobox. Just remember that not all Wikipedia editors are White, as you said at User talk:Thebrisc. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 11:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Fyunck Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. @Fyunck: This is my first dispute, was unsure of the process of notifying you for comment. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)) Wrong ping name. It's lucky I even saw this since you'd need to put Fyunck(click) as the name. First off, you need to follow protocol or things go south very quickly in a discussion. You make a bold edit to an article. You get reverted by someone. You make the same bold edit to the article with perhaps a better summary as to why. Someone else reverts you. You NEVER re-add it again. It's brought to talk and you try your best to convince others why your way is correct. If others disagree you can try to bring more people into the discussion with an RFC, but you don't force the change by edit warring. As for the post here, I'm kinda confused by it. You say indigenous keeps getting removed, that we are all racists with white privilege. Well that's hogwash. Not everything goes in the first paragraph of the lead. We don't say Maria Sharapova is a Siberian Russian born tennis player. We wouldn't say someone is an Eskimo if they represent Canada. The WTA has a bio on Barty that makes no mention that she's aboriginal (or actually half aboriginal). Tennis.com Australia, same thing, nothing in the bio. Her twitter and facebook accounts, zip on aboriginal! You say there's no mention of it in the article, and that would be incorrect. The lead already says ""Barty is of Indigenous heritage and serves as the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia." Prose also says her father is "a Ngarigo Indigenous Australian" and her mother is "the daughter of English immigrants." Later in prose we have a quote from Barty, "I'm a very proud Indigenous woman...". There is plenty there but I'm guessing you demand it be in the first sentence, not just the lead? I would disagree, and it appears so do many others. And that's where we are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion in the summary of dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Fyunck I have had my toes in the Wikipedia pool for less than 24 hours and it is about as user friendly as a porcupine, so if I have not followed protocol it's because researching protocol is like putting stockings on an octopus. I takes a little time and obviously it is easy to mess up. OK so all I can really glean from your comment is validation that your cultural awareness of Australian Aboriginal people is not very high. If someone identifies as Aboriginal, then they are Aboriginal (and please note the capital A in Aboriginal). There is no half Aboriginal, there is no quarter Aboriginal. Those are terms that people use who have really identified as non Indigenous but are describing their ethnic heritage as a jigsaw - personal identity is not a jigsaw - you are or you aren't. In Australia, generally this is the language of people who use skin colour or European ancestry as a way to discredit, delegitimise, denigrate or discriminate against Aboriginal people. Furthermore, in Australia Blood Quantum is highly offensive and considered racist because it was used as an instrument in the Stolen Generation to usurp the parental rights of Aboriginal people and steal their children. No culturally sensitive person describes a person who has identified as Aboriginal as half Aboriginal. Nowhere in the article (in the words of editors) does it say that Ash is an Indigenous Australian. It says she is of Indigenous heritage which (as I explained above) is not the same thing. (I have Scottish, English and Irish heritage, and I do not identify as any of those). The description of her father is accurate, unfortunately the only similar description of the subject is wayyyyyy down the bottom and in her own words. And those words show that the woman herself feels that her cultural identity is a significant part of who she is.. (and note Fyunck, she does not say she is a proud half Aboriginal woman). There are reasons why Indigenous Australians identify specifically as Indigenous Australians that can not be compared to your Sharapova analogy above, but I feel like I could write you a book on your knowledge gaps of Indigenous Australia and what you need to take away from this is that you are culturally and historically ignorant - which is fine in itself because lots of people are - what is important is that you take the time to listen to Aboriginal people and be prepared to understand that the sphere of white privilege does not extend to encompass the Earth, there are actually other valid perspectives... And many others disagree with your take too... hence a 3 month back and fro - kinda like a ball over a net - and it isn't going to end until the page reflects her Cultural Identity. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 10:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)) Its quite weird that some of those accounts and IPs made most of their edits on Ashleigh Barty... Yes, there may be some grammatical errors. Did this whole thing start with that news outlet article??? Nigos (talk • Contribs) 11:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Some of these points could have been brought up on the talk page and discussed instead of ramming things down peoples throats. You complain of Wikipedia being unfriendly and that it takes time to learn. You haven't exactly tried with all your racism talk. You don't come in as an ensign and turn the engines up to warp 5. That's asking for disaster. That is not working and playing well with others. Talk pages are where changes happen and for getting your point across. All this seems to mean more to you than it does to Barty whose personal pages are pretty baron of the issue. We also have to be careful because according to the wikipedia article on Indigenous Australians, the term can actually be hurtful and disgusting to the original inhabitants and many don't like it at all. There is a Barty article on wikipedia because of one thing, she is a good tennis player and is notable for her playing. Highlights of those things are what belongs in the lead section. The only reason indigenous gets mention in the lead at all is because she is a National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia. The rest belongs in her early years or personal life section just like you'd do with baseball great Johnny Bench and his indigenous background. In her early life and background the first sentence, with consensus, could be tweaked to say "Barty was born on 24 April 1996 to Josie and Robert Barty, and is an Indigenous Australian." It's possible that could work. But it would be best for you to understand what a paint brush is before you start creating the next Mona Lisa. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:04, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Nigos I (mistakenly) reverted one of their edits on simplewiki for being unsourced. I closed the previous dispute on enwiki as it was made when the filer only made one edit to the talk page. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 08:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Ashleigh Barty discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Just to be clear I have changed the relevant section heading to "Indigenous Australian or simply Australian?" Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC) I am sympathetic to the views of Sharyn4939 but I am ultimately opposed to it. In this instance we should simply follow standard practice. In the first sentence of the lede it is sufficient to just note date of birth, reason for notability, and country. Further down in the lede it does mention that she is a member of the Indigenous population of Australia. But I think this is of secondary importance to the prevailing government. It tends to be standard practice in our bio articles in the first sentence to mention the country from which the subject hails, and that would simply be Australia. That is not a slight against her identity as an Indigenous person. Bus stop (talk) 14:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC) The term "Indigenous Australian" has been added in the last paragraph of the lead. That may satisfy the complainant. WWGB (talk) 07:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Possible First Statement by Volunteer User:Sharyn4939 User:WWGB User:Fyunck(click) User:Nigos : Are you still interested in moderated discussion? If so, please respond below this line. You may optionally make a one-paragraph statement, but I will ask for statements shortly. Please do not respond to each others' statements at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC) Possible First Statements by Editors WWGB added the term to the bottom of the last paragraph of the lead. I'm fine with that and consider it settled. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Kid Cudi#The_discography_section_of_the_musician%27s_primary_article

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Qlazarus on 21:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Kid Cudi#The discography section of the musician%27s primary article (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Qlazarus (talk · contribs) STATicVapor (talk · contribs) Dispute overview After we updated the discography section of a musician's primary article to meet Wikipedia guidelines, another editor, STATicVapor, reverted the whole edit. I understand keeping some of our updates and not others, perhaps even creating a discussion around their own ideas. The trouble is, next this person went back into our edit history and reverted the last several pages that we edited. Wikipedia is supposed to be all about collaboration and volunteerism. Discussions could have been made first in this case, of course, there was no issue with our edits. This wasn’t about improving Wikipedia. When an editor goes back to revert several of another editor’s edits on different pages it is meant to demoralize and dispirit them. This is the most toxic kind of editor. Have you tried to resolve this previously? A talk page section was created. How do you think we can help? Provide a warning to this type of editor and then ban them if nothing changes. Summary of dispute by STATicVapor Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:Kid Cudi#The_discography_section_of_the_musician%27s_primary_article discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Camille Paglia#BLP_violation

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Jean-Francois Gariepy on 14:20, 9 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Camille Paglia#BLP violation (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Jean-Francois Gariepy (talk · contribs) Freeknowledgecreator (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I found that the views of Camille Paglia on the controversial topic of Child Sexuality had not been sufficiently documented on Wikipedia and I therefore added a subsection about it in the "Views" section of her page. I am faced with a user who, instead of improving the text as is recommended in Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution, constantly deletes the entire section. I have made numerous changes to the paragraph as they were providing their critiques, but it has become clear that this user simply opposes to the introduction of the material as a whole. The subject of the relevance of this section should be determined based on Wikipedia:Notability_(people) rather than the subjective determination by this editor that these views are not "major ones" of the living person. In this case, these views held by Paglia were covered in The Time, The Telegraph, Salon, The Guide, as well as numerous primary works of the author published in the form of her own books. Furthermore, User:Freeknowledgecreator argues that these views might not still be held by the person since they were expressed in the 1990s, but for that he has no citations and asks us to believe that he may have heard somewhere that her views on the subject had changed since then. This argument should be rejected until he can provide a relevant quote. In any case, the documentation of these views expressed publicly by Paglia warrant encyclopedic documentation. Finally, the critique by User:Freeknowledgecreator is contradictory in that he complains the paragraph is too long, and instead of showing us a way he could shorten it, he deletes it. On the other hand, he previously argues I was not offering proper context to the quotes, to which I replied by adding the full quotes, which increased the length of the text. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have opened a discussion on the talk page so that any opposition to the paragraph could be expressed. I have then modified the new subsection according to the feedback provided by User:Freeknowledgecreator in three rounds of correction, but he continues deleting the entire section. How do you think we can help? What would help resolve this dispute is to have a third party declare that the new subsection is warranted and that sufficient space must be allowed to cover the context of the quotes on this controversial subject. An appeal to User:Freeknowledgecreator to engage constructively on the writing of this subsection rather than deleting salvageable text would also be welcomed. Summary of dispute by Freeknowledgecreator Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I intended at first to simply ignore Jean-Francois Gariepy's comments here, since participation at the "Dispute resolution noticeboard" is not compulsory. However, I note that shortly after Jean-Francois Gariepy said that "a third party" should "declare that the new subsection is warranted", a brand new account, Erdmännle, made this comment, supporting Jean-Francois Gariepy, as its very first edit. How very convenient. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Talk:Camille Paglia#BLP_violation discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note Jean-Francois added views by Paglia on child sexuality and backed them up with third party sources as well as comments by Paglia in her books Vamps and Tramps and Sexual Personae. Though controversial, there is no need to have deleted the whole paragraph. Wikipedia should not shun away from controversy. But as Freeknowledgecreator rightly mentioned, this should be done in a respectful manner. We should definitively keep out the North American Man/Boy Love Association´s statement as this might lead to even more infighting in the article. Erdmännle (talk) 07:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC) The "Volunteer Note" above was made by a brand new user who has made no edits to Wikipedia except to make that comment. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:16, 10 September 2019 (UTC) So does this invalidate my proposition? By this measure, any edit by a new user should be discarded. Btw, I´m not a single issue account. I´ve made edits on the German WIkipedia before. Do talk to the facts, please. Erdmännle (talk) 12:25, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Freeknowledgecreator—you are citing WP:PROPORTION but you are removing the entire paragraph, actually 3 paragraphs. Bus stop (talk) 12:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Erdmännle—are you a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of Jean-Francois Gariepy? Bus stop (talk) 13:10, 10 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by KyleJoan on 18:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved KyleJoan (talk · contribs) AnAudLife (talk · contribs) ToBeFree (talk · contribs) Almond Plate (talk · contribs) Dispute overview 'The Real Housewives of New York City' cast member Luann de Lesseps was alphabetized in the article as de Lesseps, Luann, which adheres to the American naming system, up until it was changed a few months back. Now it is Lesseps, Luann de, which adheres to French conventions. As an American woman with a surname of French origin, it has been debated which manner of alphabetizing is more suitable. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have requested a third opinion and opened a request for comment, both of which did not help establish a consensus. How do you think we can help? By giving a categorical decision on whether it is more appropriate for Luann de Lesseps to be alphabetized as Lesseps, Luann de or de Lesseps, Luann. Summary of dispute by AnAudLife "Lesseps, Ferdinand de and La Tour, Georges de." Those two names are French, yet we alphabetize them as stated in English reference (one of those names is identical to the name here in our dispute). In other words, here in Wikipedia and in an actual brick and mortar library here in the United States of America, those names are listed as: Lesseps, Ferdinand de La Tour, Georges de Luann de Lesseps is indeed American, she married a French man with a French surname, she shouldn't be alphabetized differently than her husband simply because she isn't French. Also, on the RHONY talk page I've provided numerous other references, one even being Merriam-Webster's Manual for Writers and Editors that supports my claim. Lesseps is the family surname or the "root", de is the preposition or the "particle", what should be alphabetized is the actual surname, not the preposition. AnAudLife (talk) 15:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The RFC was closed by the originator without allowing it to run to completion, and so of course it did not establish a consensus. Is this a question about the RHNY article, or a question that is really about the Manual of Style? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC) After two weeks of being active, the RfC generated only two additional users with differing views, one stating that the sorting should follow American conventions and the other questioning why nationality plays a factor, which left AnAudLife and myself to regurgitate the same points over and over. The question is in regards to the RHONY article specifically because while the MOS does not provide a guideline on how to sort Americans with names of French origin, WP:MCSTJR outlines how to sort names with particles in situations with inconsistencies such as the one at hand. KyleJoantalk 20:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC) Correction, TWO users supported my theory while only ONE supported KyleJoan's opinion. She closed the RFC because she didn't like the results she was getting. AnAudLife (talk) 15:43, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Two users responded to the RfC. One of the users AnAudLife is referencing as supporting my theory has been an active participant since before the RfC, as displayed here. In addition, other comments on the dispute, including the third opinion, are freely available on the article's talk page. KyleJoantalk 21:11, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Three users responded to the RFC, one agreed with you, Peter Southwood, two agreed with me, Almond Plate and ~ ToBeFree AnAudLife (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Robert McClenon has a point: This seems to be a general Manual of Style question and needs a non-local RfC or Village Pump discussion. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2019 (UTC) That has already been attempted twice, which you can find here and here; neither came to a resolution. A user on the first discussion even makes a reference to another previous one, available here, where in regards to the sorting of the name de Quincey, it depends on everything from geography, time period, culture, to personal preference. As this guidance is for sorting of articles into a category, it assumes you can make the determination based on intersections of those factors for the article plus the category. This assessment is in line with WP:MCSTJR, which I fully reference to make my point here. KyleJoantalk 21:53, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Let's look at it in simpler terms. Imagine, for argument sake, there are 5 million people in the world who use "de" preceding their family name. Such as: John A. de Smith Mary D. de Jones James L. de Johnson Susie M. de White Can you imagine indexing all 5 million people by the "de"? No, because it makes indexing names easier to do and of course easier to locate a certain name by alphabetizing them by their family names, not by the particle, in this case meaning of...which is a preposition. Why don't we allow a resolution or a consensus to be reached instead of continuing to debate? Everything that we've already pointed out is found in the RHONY talk page. AnAudLife (talk) 22:29, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Volunteer Note - I would prefer to resolve this by an MOS-level RFC, and it appears that the two previous discussions were never formally put to RFC. If we want an interim solution for this one socialite, I am willing to offer my opinion, but I don't know if you want it. Do you want my opinion, or do you want me to remain neutral? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Please do make it a MOS-level RFC. On another note, just for everyone's information, Almond Plate has been checkuser-blocked. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2019 (UTC) I don’t know what checkuser blocked is but it doesn’t sound good. Please notify me of MOS RFC. Thank you. AnAudLife (talk) 03:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC) User:AnAudLife - It means that the user was blocked for sockpuppetry by a CheckUser, a functionary who has access to login records that match IP addresses with user accounts. It means that the user was a sockpuppet or puppet-master. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Almond Plate being out of the discussion means that AnAudLife's theory is left with zero user support. ToBeFree, you posed a question in your response to the RfC, which I and WP:MCSTJR answered, so now I would love to hear your categorical view if you'd like to state it. Robert McClenon, I would love to have your opinion to help form an interim solution for this specific case. Thanks, all! KyleJoantalk 05:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC) KyleJoan Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC) you really do make up your own facts in your own little world. Let’s not forget all the support I had in MOS discussion that you referenced above. Which is where I think this conversation should take place as previously stated. AnAudLife (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Volunteer Note - I am willing to offer my opinion on this specific case, but my opinion on this case reflects what I think should be the rule about cases where the nationality of the person differs from the national origin of the surname. Do you want my opinion on this case, or do you want an RFC about the MOS? Robert McClenon (talk) 12:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Volunteer Note - Be civil. No insults. Robert McClenon (talk) I personally would like an RFC about the MOS. AnAudLife (talk) 12:57, 12 September 2019 (UTC) This is leading nowhere without a proper MOS RFC. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC) I still feel that a MOS RfC could very well conclude in that the findings of the previous three discussions that an intersectionality of the factors listed on WP:MCSTJR is the most appropriate solution. Seeing how the last three discussions went, I believe the probability for this is high. That said, there's no reason we can't have both a MOS RfC and an interim solution for this specific dispute. Robert McClenon, I'd still like to hear your opinion on this specific case in the interim because as I pointed out in my dispute summary, the name had been indexed one way for years until only a few months ago, so I feel it is more appropriate to resolve this specific dispute first and then take on the broader idea of indexing if one should so choose. KyleJoantalk 18:09, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. @KyleJoan: So, basically you're not interested in what is correct and/or accepted standards of indexing, you just want this one particular case decided in your favor regardless of whether it's correct or not? Because to be frank, when I first spotted the discrepancy and corrected it you began an edit war that went beyond believable and you were suspended for one month because of how poorly you handled it. And that was your 6th suspension for edit warring. You've made this one issue about "winning" instead of seeing and understanding the cold hard facts that I presented in several different areas of discussion. I would like to take this to MOS RFC, for this case and for others that may be affected in the future. AnAudLife (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC) As there is no deadline, I'd prefer the general MOS discussion to happen instead of making a local solution dependent on the DRN volunteer's opinion. Simply stating one more opinion here seems unlikely to resolve the dispute. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:54, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Let's keep in mind that we don't even know what Robert McClenon's opinion is. Aside from that, there's already a majority view on the article's talk page, with not one [myself], not two, not three, but four users believing in one way of sorting. I understand that's not a consensus, but since this dispute originated from a bold edit on a specific article that went against what had been a precedent for years, there's no reason for said disputed bold edit not to be resolved in the interim. Therefore, I maintain that both a MOS RfC and an interim solution can exist simultaneously. KyleJoantalk 01:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC) First Statement by Moderator I will be starting an RFC against the MOS shortly. In the meantime, read the ground rules which restate the rule to comment on content, not contributors. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where to post the RFC. I don't think that the talk page of WP:MCSTJR is well enough read, and I am inclined to try the Manual of Style main talk page, with mentions at other places. Does anyone have any suggestions for where to post the RFC? I am providing a space for back-and-forth discussion in case it makes anyone feel better. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:37, 13 September 2019 (UTC) I do not plan to offer an interim opinion. I will provide my opinion in the RFC a few days after it is posted (waiting to be sure that the RFC is proceeding well). When the RFC is closed, maybe that will decide this and other names. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:37, 13 September 2019 (UTC) For the sake of clarity, I would just like to mention that the three previous discussions attempting to address situations such as this did take place on WT:MOS and not the WT:COP, therefore, the discussion you're about to begin would be the fourth on the MOS main talk page. I understand this coming discussion will involve an RfC; I only wanted to make sure the details of previous discussions weren't overlooked. KyleJoantalk 08:29, 13 September 2019 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: the above user has began yet another dispute here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents AnAudLife (talk) 21:28, 13 September 2019 (UTC) First Statements by Editors Thank you Robert McClenon for deferring to the MOS RFC, I look forward to reading your entry and discussing this topic further with other editors. I had started a discussion here that generated a lot of discussion and talking points but unfortunately a conclusion wasn't reached. There is a lot of information available regarding this topic, some are definitive, some have exceptions, it would be nice to finally have definitive guidance on this topic. I also agree that the the Manual of Style main talk page is a good place to start but I'm not sure about elsewhere, as you may sense, I'm on a bit of a learning curve. The discussions here I found particularly helpful and most especially under this heading, just in case you want to reference any of the information in your RFC. Thank you very much for all your help. AnAudLife (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Didn't I reference WP:MCSTJR multiple times already? Now I'm confused. I was under the impression that the dispute began due to a theory that wanted to challenge the "other exceptions" section of the WP:COP article. If there's no issue with the guideline that outlines how to sort names when there are inconsistencies, then why is this dispute happening, again? KyleJoantalk 08:32, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Back-and-Forth Discussion First, it was asserted that indexing according to French conventions was correct. Then, it was easier. Now, regarding the information applied to adhere to said conventions, some are definitive, some have exceptions. The scope of this dispute has been narrowed and broadened so many times that even I'm puzzled. For what it's worth, I stand by every statement I made, every external article I presented, and every guideline I referenced. KyleJoantalk 09:03, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Indexing according to family surname is correct. It is also easier for editing, referencing, reading and learning. And yes there are always exceptions to every rule and as anyone who reads the many discussions we've had on this topic, one can glean different interpretations of the information here. For example, "Generally, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish names do not include lowercase particles in sorting, but do include uppercase particles. For example, Otto von Bismarck is sorted Bismarck, Otto von, Jean de La Fontaine is sorted La Fontaine, Jean d, and Alberto Di Chiara is sorted Di Chiara, Alberto." That statement sounds pretty obvious to me, maybe it doesn't to you though. And then there's this one which you constantly reference, "Names with particles or prefixes are a complex field and there are exceptions and inconsistencies. Examples of particles are al, dall, de, della, di, dos, du, el, la, o, and von. Whether or not to include the particle in sorting can be up to the individual's personal preference, traditional cultural usage or the customs of one's nationality." I see that differently than you, we don't know how (in the particular case we're discussing) either Luann de Lesseps or her ex-husband, Alexandre, prefers how they want their name sorted for indexing purposes (although, Alexandre being a direct descendant of Ferdinand de Lesseps, who is always sorted by Lesseps, one could conclude he'd prefer being sorted by Lesseps as well). Traditional cultural usage defers back to how the French generally distinguish particles from surnames when sorting, which is they do not include lowercase particles. And the customs of one's nationality, while Luann de Lesseps is American, she bears her French ex-husband's family name which is, again, "generally does not include the lowercase particle in sorting". As stated by myself and others it seems ridiculous to sort Luann one way and her ex-husband another way just because of nationality, that will most definitely cause problems across the board when sorting married couples or divorced individuals of different nationalities. And if we're going to be frank, Luann de Lesseps has maintained that she is half American Indian, so are we going to start doing ancestry on an individual before we sort them correctly? That is why this conversation was started, sorting indexing, alphabetizing...should be done according to the name itself, not exclusively the nationality. And we haven't even addressed the nobility aspect. Alexandre de Lesseps is a Count and Luann maintains she is still a Countess which according to Encyclopedia Britannica is a title of nobility so lets just throw that in the mix as well, what then? In order for Luann to carry the title of Countess, she had to become a French citizen and maintain that citizenship, therefore, her nationality could be interpreted as French and then that would cover the nationality aspect as well, right? So yes, there is a lot to consider, not only in this case but in others now and in the future which is why it's important to be as consistent as possible. I too stand by everything I've stated and referenced, I've scoured the internet and Wikipedia and read so many articles, I'm not going to reference them all, we'd be here all day. I still maintain, the name de Lesseps is French, the name de Lesseps in cases other this particular one is sorted by the L in Lesseps, I still fail to understand why this is even being questioned. I look forward to more discussion on the RFC that Robert McClenon will begin. AnAudLife (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Indexing according to family surname is correct. When has anyone ever said it wasn't? And the customs of one's nationality, while Luann de Lesseps is American, she bears her French ex-husband's family name . . . The guideline states, "one's nationality," not, "the first person from another part of the world from centuries ago who first obtained the name's nationality." . . . we don't know how (in the particular case we're discussing) either Luann de Lesseps or her ex-husband, Alexandre, prefers how they want their name sorted for indexing purposes (although, Alexandre being a direct descendant of Ferdinand de Lesseps, who is always sorted by Lesseps, one could conclude he'd prefer being sorted by Lesseps as well). Assumption. WP:OR. The New York Times. Mrs. de Lesseps. As stated by myself and others it seems ridiculous to sort Luann one way and her ex-husband another way just because of nationality . . . Does this not contradict the very guideline referenced only a few sentences before as well as the "different" opinion on what constructs one's nationality? . . . so are we going to start doing ancestry on an individual before we sort them correctly? Isn't this part of the process of determining the origin of one's surname, anyway? And we haven't even addressed the nobility aspect. There's no guideline saying that the American naming system recognizes nobility. Alexandre de Lesseps is a Count and Luann maintains she is still a Countess . . . She does not. She is not. In order for Luann to carry the title of Countess, she had to become a French citizen and maintain that citizenship . . . OR. Anyone else seeing the confusion I mentioned? KyleJoantalk 17:50, 13 September 2019 (UTC) You have repeatedly stated that sorting by the family surname is incorrect, that we should be sorting by the particle. That's what started this mess, when I corrected the last name on the page we've been discussing. As far as the snipit of nationality I referenced, keep reading all of it...what I wrote in it's entirety and maybe you can understand that. Alexandre de Lesseps is Luann's ex-husband whose name she bears, he is French, as is his name, which he, Luann and their children all take a great amount of pride in, centuries of pride. As far as your NY Times article...I have no idea what your trying to convey there. And yes, it's a pretty obvious conclusion that Alexandre de Lesseps would expect to be indexed exactly as his direct descendants were, by the family name not the particle. No contradictions. Wikipedia does recognize nobility. WP:PEERS Maybe the confusion lies in that one isn't reading all of the information available, maybe one is just picking one reference and clinging to that one to reach their conclusion? One must read all the available guidelines, rely on historical reference, the origination of the name, etc., in other words, everything I just outlined above. We don't know how they prefer to be indexed without asking them. We know how his name, de Lesseps, has been sorted by his own descendants via traditional cultural usage, which is by the family name Lesseps. We know Luann maintains her French title, the Countess. We know she is of mixed ancestry/nationality. Everything here points towards sorting on the L in Lesseps. She does. maintain the title although technically she is not. She did however, still retain the noble's last name, which is sorted by Lesseps, not de. Does anyone else see how simple this decision is, all things considered? And I wasn't going to continue to debate this here, I was simply providing Robert McClenon material to think about while writing the RFC. AnAudLife (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Yes, it's so simple that . . . it's a pretty obvious conclusion that Alexandre de Lesseps would expect to be indexed exactly as his direct descendants were, by the family name not the particle and that we . . . don't know how they prefer to be indexed without asking them. No contradiction whatsoever. KyleJoantalk 19:48, 13 September 2019 (UTC) I'm merely covering every point you made...on here, on the RHONY talk page and everywhere else you've addressed this. And more importantly, the points here: WP:SUR, WP:PEERS and WP:MCSTJR. Of course there's a myriad of other editorial references, articles, magazines, etc. that I'm not going to clutter this page with further. If we can't ask them directly, let's go with traditional cultural usage and how it's been done in his family with the family name historically. AnAudLife (talk) 20:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC) References The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by CherryPie94 on 08:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved CherryPie94 (talk · contribs) The Banner (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The issue is that I was updating red links using template:ill to help readers access the original-language Wikipedia to aid them in creating articles or simply read the articles if they know Korean. However, The Banner, keeps undoing my changes because "this is the English language Wikipedia. Not much people can read Korean here." They keep removing even the red links, which is against WP:RED, since the subject of the red links is notable and I can find lots of sources about it. Moreover, they keep claiming I have a Conflict of Interest just because I added template:ill. In addition, they tag the article with "This article contains content that is written like an advertisement" and "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject", which is baseless. I tried reasoning with them, however, they keep coming and undoing my change and tagging the article with false tags. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I tried discussing it here but The Banner refuse to discuss the issue, provide guidelines/rules that I'm wrong in adding template:ill, and help us all reach a solution, and instead keep claiming I have a conflict of interest without discussing the main issue. How do you think we can help? We should reach a consensus if we are allowed to use template:ill in the English Wikipedia, to aid readers access info to read and create articles, or not. Summary of dispute by The Banner Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Could you please tell me where we have recently discussed this, as I am not aware of that. The Banner talk 10:01, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - I am putting this thread on hold to permit discussion at the article talk page to resume. There was discussion at the article talk page, but it was six months ago. Resume discussion on the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, this thread can be activated. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Comment - The discussion was six months ago, but the The Banner refused to discuss the main point properly and stopped replying after that. However, a couple of days ago, they went back to remove template:ill and other red links and undoing my changes, without trying to reach a solution in the talk page first. They claim it is not usefully and people can't read Korean (of course it will be not useful to them, since they are not interested in Editing Korea-related articles), however, adding template:ill shows that there is an article in Korean and it helped me and other volunteers make articles in English. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chris Savino

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Sambiswas95 on 10:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Example (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Sambiswas95 (talk · contribs) Amaury (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Here is an article I found about an American animator named Chris Savino. At first, I read it for the sake of curiosity. However, after reading the article, I notice there are some errors that need to be fixed. Some of them are somewhat misleading and outdated. Date of birth is misinformed. There is already information about his birth outside of Wikipedia. All of which shows the same date. Since after Savino was fired from his job, there is still no sign of new reports about Savino's post-career life, so the years active is officially outdated. The year active should be 1991-2017 not 1991-present. Although this is considered optional instead of factual, I felt like there should be an image of Savino that needs to be displayed in this article. Savino plays an important role in the animation industry and has a history of Sexual harassment allegations, I think is important for the viewers to be aware of this man especially of what he looks like. Bethney Savino plays an important role in Savino's personal life. She was the wife of Chris Savino and later divorced him for the allegations. Despite the evidence and references, the article didn't bother to mention her name. After editing, I notice there is another editor name Amaury who disapproved my editing which I clearly understand. Every editor is just making sure there aren't any vandalism and misleading biases in the articles. However, what I don't understand is that not only he didn't explain of what reason for him revert back to the previous version, but made a report of me for disruptive editing which leads me to be warned that if I do that again I may get blocked from editing. And that is why I came to you guys. Have you tried to resolve this previously? After being disapproved by the editor, I undo his reversion and talked to him "Please give a valid reason why you need to revert back to the previous page. There's already new and clear evidence about Chris Savino's backstory." How do you think we can help? As long there is a piece of new and valid evidence about Chris Savino than I'm sure references should help. Summary of dispute by Amaury Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Chris_Savino discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:International Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness#Editors_reverting_showing_bias?

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Shiva das on 22:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Location of dispute Talk:International Society for Krishna Consciousness#Editors reverting showing bias? (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Shiva das (talk · contribs) Freeknowledgecreator (talk · contribs) Chiswick_Chap (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I removed a paragraph at the top section where an intro is explaining the topic, the paragraph I removed is clearly a subjective opinion which is clearly meant to be prejudicial against this religious group, and also a part of the paragraph is redundant since the same thing is covered further on--and again the only reason it is there at the top is to inspire prejudice. Two people keep putting it back, which along with numerous other edits they have made shows a pattern of trying to inspire prejudice. The other dispute is a much more minor dispute and involved both of them removing a section showing some images of temples, which the person claims is too many for his or her taste, so they simply removes the entire section. They have both targeted this topic in a clear attempt to inspire prejudice. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I started a discussion on the talk page but only one person responded and only about the image removal, which the person simply decided wasn't to their liking? How do you think we can help? Clearly those two are trying to inspire prejudice by their editing on this topic and refuse to discuss this because it is obvious, they have made many more edits and it is clear they seek to mislead based on an unknown agenda rather than to inform. I would ask that they be removed from commenting on this page and all their edits removed. Summary of dispute by Freeknowledgecreator Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Chiswick_Chap Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:International Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness#Editors_reverting_showing_bias? discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:People%27s Mujahedin_of_Iran#Recent_revert_by_Mhhossein

– New discussion.

Filed by Stefka Bulgaria on 09:38, 17 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran#Recent revert by Mhhossein (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Stefka Bulgaria (talk · contribs)
• Mhhossein (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This section Ties to foreign actors has three unnecessary subheadings:

• "After exile" (no need for this since we don' have a "Before exile" subheading anymore).

• "State sponsorship" (a subsection that only consists of one sentence can be merged under section's current heading).

• "Non-state actors", which can be merged together with the section's current heading: "Ties to foreign and non-state actors"

user:Mhhossein's objection to this has been: "IRI POVs and MEK's possible counter-POVs need to be included in the "State-sponsorship" section which justifies keeping the section."

I find that Mhhossein's objection does not address the issue of having unnecessary subheadings.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

TP discussion that led to nowhere

How do you think we can help?

I think my request makes sense, but Mhhossein's objection doesn't, so we need a uninvolved editor to take a quick look and decide.

Summary of dispute by Mhhossein

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:People%27s Mujahedin_of_Iran#Recent_revert_by_Mhhossein discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• @Mhhossein:, do you intend to get involved in this discussion here? Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 08:44, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Hey Steven Crossin. I think the capacity of the article talk page is not used well and it's too soon to come to this board, though I'm ready to respond. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:43, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Siddha medicine#Ministry_of_AYUSH_is_a_governmental_body

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 103.231.217.50 on 12:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Siddha medicine#Ministry of AYUSH is a governmental body (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Zefr (talk · contribs)
• Ifnord (talk · contribs)
• Alexbrn (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The Editors claim that Siddha medicine as Quackery But Siddha medicine is a scientific process. Tamil Nadu state runs a 5.5-year course in Siddha medicine (BSMS: Bachelor in Siddha Medicine and Surgery). There are research centers like National Institute of Siddha and Central Council for Research in Siddha.

I believe the editors must feel that Siddha medicine as Quackery because of it's spiritual aspect. I have asked them to provide the details of the experiments done on Siddha medicine to prove that its Quackery.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed on the Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

If possible it should not be added since it has not been proved as quackery, and will mislead the new people looking for alternative medicine. If that is not possible then it should be added on a separate subheading called "Criticism".

Summary of dispute by Zefr

There are two levels of the dispute. 1) Specifically and mainly, the IP refutes a widely published account and fact that the Indian Medical Association (members are conventional MDs) identifies Siddha medicine as quackery (stated and sourced in the article lede). 2) More generally, the IP is attempting to redefine Siddha medicine as science-based, but rather there is decades-long knowledge of it as myth-based with no actual scientific practices (same as for other Indian rural medicine, like Ayurveda and Unani), including in 1996 and 2018 by the Supreme Court of India (talk page discussion, and here). Under WP:BURDEN, the IP has no reputable science-based evidence that Siddha is not quackery, and is soapboxing an isolated opinion to counter the prevailing widely-held view, even in India by the Supreme Court and fact-based professionals. We have two essays guiding how Wikipedia deals with medical quackery and pseudoscience: WP:QUACKS and "Yes, we are biased". --Zefr (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ifnord

Zefr has summed this up very nicely, please see [1] on the article's talk page. The IP has violated 3RR to remove the indication that this pseudo medicine is considered quackery by mainstream medicine. The article is unbalanced, as is. There is no criticism, no indication (other than the lede) in the text that this is pseudoscience. A reader needs to see an article which is more than simply an advertisement to this practice. Ifnord (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexbrn

We must follow policy and sources; the OP's requests here are not aligned with these basic requirements. Alexbrn (talk) 06:02, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Siddha medicine#Ministry_of_AYUSH_is_a_governmental_body discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Pretty cut and dry, this one. 103.231, on Wikipedia we need to stick to reliable sources and what they say, and not give undue weight to minority viewpoints on topics. I've reviewed the article discussion page and editors there have made their argument well on the quackery claim being backed up by reliable sources, so I really don't see any further need for discussion here. The status quo (having the content in the article) is the correct outcome here per policy. I'll close this in 48 hours if no other comments crop up. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 08:42, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Selfstudier on 18:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish bill (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Selfstudier (talk · contribs) Icewhiz (talk · contribs) Banana Republic (talk · contribs) Tradedia (talk · contribs) Dispute overview An editor removed material. I reverted. We then had discussions on the article talk page (and on my user talk page subsequently copied over to the talk page). The editor removed the material again. I reverted again and explained I would take it to dispute resolution. Have you tried to resolve this previously? None. How do you think we can help? There may in the end be several issues but at present the dispute appears to revolve around who ONUS applies to. Should the onus be on me, the editor who originally added the material, to justify keeping it in (and it stays out meanwhile) or should the onus be on the editor deleting the material to justify taking the material out (and it stays in meanwhile). Summary of dispute by Icewhiz Selfstudier should adhere to WP:ONUS and WP:BRD - he added material, and got reverted. As for the material - it is poorly sourced (Middle East Monitor - very not mainstream) and of little lasting significance. This is a draft bill, in a small country (Ireland) that is far from the the area or the conflict. Furthermore the bill hasn't passed - from the homepage of the bill's sponsor (a source we must resort to due to lack of coverage) - we learn it is stuck in committee. In short - this draft bill received a little bit of coverage back in Jan, and very little since, and would have a rather minute effect even if passed. QED WP:UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC) moved - wrong place.Icewhiz (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2019 (UTC) Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Statements by uninvolved editors Statements by Banana Republic Seems that since the material was added on June 28 and not challenged until August 28, WP:STATUSQUO is for the material to be included until a consensus can be shown to remove it. If the issue is quality of the reference, and better references are available, why not replace the reference? As for whether or not the paragraph should be included, it seems to currently be in the wrong section. It seems that the more appropriate home for this paragraph would be under the Economy section, and under the Export to EU subsection under that. Banana Republic (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2019 (UTC) Icewhiz seems to be misapplying WP policies. First, Icewhiz claims WP:UNDUE. Since there is a subsection in the article titled "Export to EU", it seems to me that any legislation reported in WP:RS impacting Export to EU would be DUE. Of course, the Wikipedia coverage should be much less in-depth than if the legislation were to become law. But that does not mean there should be zero mention unless the bill were to become law. Icewhiz then claims WP:CRYSTAL Mentioning legislation does not in and of itself predict passage into law. Banana Republic (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC) Statements by Tradedia I have to agree with the commenter above that since the material was added in June and not challenged until August, the material should stay until there is a new consensus to remove it. Also, I would like to comment on the content. If the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law for the first time in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality. I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradediatalk 10:03, 4 September 2019 (UTC) Statements by ZScarpia See also Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions# Ireland, Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018 for a talkpage discussion about whether the Irish bill should be mentioned in relation to BDS. The thread cites sources which may be seen as more "mainstream". Describing the bill as not having passed is a bit misleading. It was actually passed by both houses of the Irish parliament. However, the Irish prime minister was attempting to avoid signing the bill into law by invoking a "money message" provision. The bill was passed despite opposition by the Irish government. There is a certain irony in Icewhiz's small country and mainstream source references.     ←   ZScarpia   13:07, 14 September 2019 (UTC) First statement by volunteer I'm willing to try to conduct moderated discussion. User:Selfstudier, User:Icewhiz - Are you ready for moderated discussion? Please read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion unless I provide a space for the purpose. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Will each editor please reply, within 36 hours, and make a one-paragraph statement as to what they think the issue is about the content of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC) First statements by editors Yes. Note @Shrike: also became involved in the article. The problem in my mind is WP:UNDUE - draft legislation is dime a dozen, the article's topic has extensive coverage, and the draft bill got some coverage when it passed a vote - and then disappeared (to the point we need to go to the homepage of the promoter to see its status). It may be due on Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (where I did not challenge it) as one of a few 2019 events of note for BDS - but not on this article.Icewhiz (talk) 02:46, 7 September 2019 (UTC) I had already edited the article on 3 September in line with statement by Banana Republic, that is, I moved the content to the suggested section and added additional references. One issue was whether the material should remain in while any discussion takes place as to whether the material should be included at all. That the bill is not yet final in law (it is passed in both houses of the Irish parliament, formal stages only remain) does not make the information any less notable nor can I see what else precisely would make it UNDUE. If it is not UNDUE in the BDS article, then it is certainly not UNDUE here as exports from Israeli settlements are the specific target of the legislation.Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC) BDS DUENESS is much-much easier - as BDS is only about boycotts (of settlements or Israel in general) - the settlement article is much wider in scope. At the moment we have essentialy a single newscycle of this back in Feb 2019. This might become DUE with sustained coverage. If we were to WP:CRYSTALBALL this having more coverage (and this is a highly notable topic) - we might end up with this draft bill remaining on the page after dying a silent death in committee (or remaining on ice in committee indefinitly)).Icewhiz (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2019 (UTC) There is clear issue of WP:ONUS "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content." There is clearly no consensus among involved editors that its WP:DUE to include.If the law passes then we may reiterate this issue. --Shrike (talk) 09:04, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Second statement by moderator I think that some of this discussion is more about timing of edits and less about the final result than is necessary. The objective of this discussion is how to improve the article (or to leave it in its current state, if it is thought that it is in better shape than the proposed changes). I am not really interested in who edited what in the recent past, as much as in what we want the article to say. For the time being, the article will remain as is, stuck in the "wrong version", because the rules that I have chosen to use say not to edit the article while discussion is in progress. We do not need to discuss any temporary changes, because we are looking to a final version of the article. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions. If you want to engage in back-and-forth discussion, please request that I provide a space for it, separate from the spaces for your statements. Is the real question whether to refer to a bill that is being discussed in the parliament of the Republic of Ireland in the article? If so, who thinks that the bill should be mentioned, and why? Who thinks that the bill should not be mentioned, and why not? Each editor, whether an original party or another editor, should state in one paragraph what their objective is about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 9 September 2019 (UTC) Second statements by editors The statement currently in the article should remain, it is directly relevant to the subject matter of the article. The main argument presented for non-inclusion is that it has not yet completed all of the stages for it to become law but of itself that seems an insufficient reason for non-inclusion when one considers that the included material is notable, is limited in size and scope and clearly states that stages remain for it to become law.Selfstudier (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC) I (and I think @Shrike: on the talk/article) object to inclusion. The bill hasn't passed and even if it were to pass - would have a marginal effect (Ireland at 333 billion GDP is 1.7% of the EU's 18.8 trillion GDP. Israeli exports to Ireland overall are very small - e.g. per Irish Times - only 60 million euro total of which (settlements are 2% of the economy) - 1.2 million euro are from settlements (around 0.5% of settlement exports to the EU - which are at 230 million dollars). The current items in Israeli settlement#Export to EU (which is a tad too long as-is) have tangible effects - they are actually in force and are either EU wide or on a significant economy (e.g. UK - 2622 billion GDP - or 13.8% of the (still in) EU)). More importantly than the actual effect of this bill if it is actually passed - what we are missing is coverage to make this WP:DUE for a topic with so much coverage. Icewhiz (talk) 07:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC) As I wrote above, if the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality. I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradediatalk 09:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC) I agree with everything Tradedia wrote except the last sentence. I think the material would be notable even if the bill fails to become law. Credible efforts to boycott exports from the settlements are notable. This is basically saying that notability is not temporary. Banana Republic (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Third statement by moderator There are four possible ways to resolve this. We can all agree to include the material. We can all agree to exclude the material. Someone can propose a compromise wording. Or there can be a Request for Comments. So, does anyone have a proposed compromise? Will the editors who want to include the material agree to its exclusion in the interest of harmony? Will the editors who want to exclude the material agree to its inclusion in the interest of harmony? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC) Third statements by editors On the article talk page I had already suggested that the editor who originally removed the material conduct an RFC if removal was desired. The editor insisted that I remove the material and that it was my responsibility to do that, which I dispute, and now we are here, in effect conducting what amounts to an RFC. As it stands there is a consensus for leaving the material in, if we can get more inputs to that de facto RFC to confirm that consensus, then that would be a good thing, would it not? Selfstudier (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC) There is no consensus to include this - but how about this - I don't think wasting community time of assessing WP:UNDUE here via a RfC is worth the time at present - particularly given the WP:ILIKEIT and WP:CRYSTALBALL arguments here (which are not soundly grounded in policy) that the bill was pass into law. So - how about we leave this in the article for now, and reassess in 3-6 months based on actual coverage in reliable sources of this. I would suggest that the current 3 sentence blurb be shortened to "The Irish Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) draft bill would prohibit in Ireland the purchase of goods and services from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements; as of February 2019 the bill has not been enacted". Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC) I do not understand how one would apply a time limit to article content, I assume that as time passes, something or nothing will happen and editors will react accordingly. The purpose of the material is to convey an appropriate amount of information to the reader, I do not see how cutting the material as suggested is very helpful, it seems to me that the purpose in doing so is to make it appear as if the material is not notable. I had in any case intended to make amendments to clarify that the bill has passed both upper and lower houses and to indicate the stages remaining so I propose, suitably referenced (I removed the proposed penalties): Having been agreed in full by the Upper house on 5 December 2018, and by the Dail (Ireland's lower house) on 24 January 2019, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) bill [2] prohibits the purchasing of any good and/or service from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements. As of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage.Remaining Stages Selfstudier (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC) I am not suggesting a time-limit - merely that we reassess in 3-6 months. Arguments here so far have been based on "it's due" (without showing RS coverage) or "it's going to pass into law" (WP:CRYSTALBALL). I don't see any great harm in the article containing an WP:UNDUE short blurb for another 3-6 months - per Wikipedia:There is no deadline. If indeed this passes into law and if it has sufficient RS coverage in 3-6 months to meet WP:DUE in 3-6 months - that will be easier to assess. Icewhiz (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC) You have not said whether you agree with my proposed wording. If you do, I will do the necessary and we can close this.Selfstudier (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC) The voting record in various Irish legislative bodies is irrelevant (being an internal Irish affair, of no consequence outside of Ireland) - so no - I do not agree. In addition - the source for "as of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage" is unclear - is this according to the bill's sponsor? That would not be a RS. Icewhiz (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2019 Then I withdraw my proposal and revert to my original position (if you click the link (remaining stages) provided above you will see that the source for the "committee stage" is the Irish government website bill tracker which shows stages completed to date and remaining stages).Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC) your source is dated 24 January (not June). It shows the next stage (8) is a committee - followed by stages 9,10, and 11 - of which 9&10 seem to be two additional votes in the Dáil . Icewhiz (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2019 (UTC) As of 22 March 2019, the bill had been passed by both houses in the Irish parliament, but the government, which opposed the bill, was dragging its feet about signing it into law: "Both the Seanad and the Dáil have passed the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018. Despite this, the Government has yet to enact the legislation, wanting instead to put the Bill through a type of economic “stress test” (detailed scrutiny) before proceeding."     ←   ZScarpia   20:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC) We have each refused the alternative wording of the other, the only option remaining should you still wish to have the material removed is an RFC.Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Fourth Statement by Moderator Will each editor who favors a statement about the Irish bill provide a one-paragraph draft of what should be said, and state exactly where in the article it will be mentioned? The purpose is to determine the wording of the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Fourth Statements by Editors Export to EU In Ireland, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill cleared the Upper house on 5 December 2018 and has progressed to Third StageCommittee in the Lower house following a Second Stage vote of 78 to 45 on 24 January 2019.RefRef. Although debate has focused on the Palestinian territories the bill prohibits the purchase of goods and services from any occupied territory.Ref (References are shown as links, the suggested section is where the current version of this material is presently located).Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC) The above assumes that the RFC will consider removal of the existing material, albeit that changes as above are contemplated. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to propose the altered material above and I would prefer simply to retain the material that was improperly removed in the first instance, so that in the event of no consensus, the material remains in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC) Removal as UNDUE was fit and proper. In the event of no consensus to include in a RfC - per WP:ONUS it is removed. If we do run a full RfC - the other option will be to remove. If you want to compromise on my suggestion above in round 3 (forestalling removal until we see it truly died in committee - or - passed - and RS coverage either way) - that's still ok with me.Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC) Your original removal of material in August of material in the article since June was disputed and the option was available to you to commence an RFC for removal, the usual procedure for a contested removal; instead you chose to engage in improper reverting in an attempt to enforce your POV, as has been pointed out by me and 2 other editors here. I merely wish to ensure that your behavior is not rewarded in any way. It is not an RFC for addition of material (if no consensus, material is not added) it is an RFC for maintaining the material that was originally in the article prior to your contested removal (if no consensus, material stays in). Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 14 September 2019 (UTC) The RfC question should be neutrally posed - e.g. "Should the article include the following passage: .....".Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC) Per Consensus "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." I expect we will follow this.Selfstudier (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC) Fifth Statement by Volunteer Moderator Did you read where I said, both at statement 1 and at statement 2, not to engage in back-and-forth discussion? Did you read where I said that I was only interested in the final content of the article and not in what was edited when in the past? If you want to get this resolved, let me moderate it in accordance with my rules. Each of you may propose a draft of what you want in the final version of the article. If you don't think that anything is needed in the final version of the article at this point, then say Nothing. Each of you may provide a draft of what you want in the final version of the article. The RFC will be neutrally worded. If there is any more back-and-forth discussion, I will fail this thread, and you can resolve it yourselves, possibly with a non-neutrally worded RFC that won't resolve anything and may result in blocks. So try doing this as I say. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2019 (UTC) Fifth Statements by Editors In Ireland, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill cleared the Upper house on 5 December 2018 and has progressed to Third StageCommittee in the Lower house following a Second Stage vote of 78 to 45 on 24 January 2019.RefRef. Although debate has focused on the Palestinian territories the bill prohibits the purchase of goods and services from any occupied territory.Ref (References are shown as links, the suggested section is where the current version of this material is presently located). Selfstudier (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC) . Option B: Nothing. Icewhiz (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC) Sixth Statement by Moderator The RFC is running. I will close this thread shortly. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC) Sixth Statements if Any by Editors Your instructions for the RFC were to "Enter Yes or No with one-sentence explanations". Would it be possible to highlight this requirement? Editor Icewhiz has written something like 10 sentences. Or, since I have not replied yet, may I simply respond in kind? Selfstudier (talk) 11:30, 19 September 2019 (UTC) I assume you are busy, not to worry, I'll remind people of your instructions myself.Selfstudier (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:T. S._Wiley

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 67.143.160.240 on 15:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:T. S. Wiley (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved WLU (talk · contribs) Dispute overview articles about T.S. Wiley and separately the Wiley Protocol are full of errors and deliberate deletion of corrections. That T.S. Wiley has a college degree was DELETED. The description of the protocol as "potentially dangerous" is ten years old and it has proven not to be. I've attempted to add her articles in peer-reviewed journals to dispute that she "lacks qualification" but they get deleted. I've posted all of these on the Talk pages to no avail. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Both articles are out of date and incorrect and biased. At the very least, they should be updated with current information like her degree, academic publications and third-party experience with those who use the Wiley Protocol, some for 15 years How do you think we can help? Since I'm COI, it would be better to have a third-party work with the editor to fix these misleading and obsolete pages. For example, there is a report by a Rosenthal depicting the Wiley Protocol as unethical. It is full of errors and attempts by others to point that out have been refused. Summary of dispute by WLU Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:T. S._Wiley discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User talk:Koavf

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Koavf on 19:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute User talk:Koavf (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Koavf (talk · contribs) Richhoncho (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Under what circumstances should redirects have WikiProject tags? Do certain types of redirects merit them and others don't? Can they be paired with templates like {{Talkpage of a redirect}} (e.g. see Talk:Spin the Bottle (Juliana Hatfield song)) Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk page discussion (at User talk:Koavf), edit summaries, a post at WP:3RR board. I cannot find any centralized discussion of this or a best practice anywhere and have solicited it from others with no results. How do you think we can help? The best case would be to have a uniform policy that shows a strong community preference (e.g. "All talk pages should have the tags associated with their targets" or "Only apply tags to redirects when the WikiProject explicitly asks for them" or "Only tag the talk pages of redirects with possibilities") Summary of dispute by Richhoncho The complainant failed to give the link for the edit warring which was closed with “This is dumb. How about just redirecting the talk page like we do for all other redirects? In any case, No violation ‘ by Bradv. The nub of the discussion is ‘should a redirect, which is duplicated and fails WP:Title be tagged as belonging to a project. I say, no, not relevant, Koavf wants to argue ‘yes’ In my edits I have tried to find alternative solutions including redirecting the talkpape to the relevant talkpage. Koavf reverted every edit including my added assessment to his project tag! I have searched and checked 30/40 entries in the Category:Avoided double redirects and none of those I saw the Talkpages were either blank or redirects. Some project tags had been removed. I have suggested to Kaovf if he feels this is an important matter then he should take it to an appropriate forum for a discussion where other editors can comment and gain community consensus, which we could both follow, rather than an endless discussion on his talkpage. He doesn’t want to do this, he’d rather keep arguing and reverting me. All this is visible at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Koavf#Talk:Spin_the_Bottle_(Juliana_Hatfield_song), Talk:Spin the Bottle (Juliana Hatfield song) and Talk:So. Central Rain (I’m Sorry) Yes, I know it is a pointless and useless argument. If I didn’t think I was going back over the same ground in 6 months/a years’ time, I would have dropped it and not bothered to start another discussion with Koavf. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC) User talk:Koavf discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:List of American Horror Story episodes

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Radiphus on 13:01, 20 September 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:List of American Horror Story episodes (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Radiphus (talk · contribs) Alex 21 (talk · contribs) Esuka (talk · contribs) TedEdwards (talk · contribs) Dispute overview An editor with a 1366x768 screen resolution reduced the width of the graph located at List of American Horror Story episodes#Ratings from 1138 to 1100 pixels, in order to make a horizontal scrollbar disappear. This however, disrupted the spacing between the bars, it made it inconsistent and hard for me to read it. They insisted that the bars are "still perfectly visible", even though i kept repeating that it's hard for me to distinguish from one another and that the inconsistent spacing between bars is something uncommon amongst professional/published sources. Another editor restored the first user's version of the graph saying that it "reads fine" to them, while another editor said that the "change to fix the issue was miniscule". Since then, two other editors have tried fixing the spacing between the bars, as they obviously noticed the same problem as i did, but they got reverted from said editors. I wonder if consensus has actually been reached in the talk page, and if accessibility issues is something negotiable. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have notified WikiProject Accessibility about the ongoing discussion. How do you think we can help? I request that you examine the arguements that have been presented so far in the ongoing discussion and help determine which version of the graph meets encyclopedic standards. Summary of dispute by Alex 21 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. The filing editor initially began their edit-war by reverting my change to the graph width, which changed the width by a mere 38px to remove an unnecessary scroll bar that did nothing to improve the listed article; over such a minor issue, the edit-war seems to have been started solely to pick a fight. They automatically did not AGF by assuming that it did not even exist (while it may not have on their editor, multiple editors have confirmed it does on theirs) and reverted the change multiple times, and after a back-and-forth on the talk page, other un-involved editors stepped in to restore and support the change, and a consensus was formed for it. As far as I can tell, the only reason to have the bars at an even width is to make it look nice, and, in my terms, "pretty", an argument that the filing editor turned around and used on my as an my apparent reason for removing the scrollbar. Another un-involved editor has recently tweaked the width further and I reverted them, informing them of the discussion and consensus on the talk page, but now the filing editor has continued their edit war by restoring the new change and returned to the talk page against the change, with slurs towards myself, a clear and direct personal attack. These are not the actions of an editor here to build an encyclopedia, or to find a resolution to this dispute, or to work with collaboratively with editors. -- /Alex/21 13:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Esuka Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I'll only say this once, if you want more from me it simply isn't going to happen. I restored the edit by Alex as I had the same issue as him and felt that it was a justified fix to the page. Please also forgive my tone here but I find it ridiculous that an editor who has clearly got hurt feelings about being reverted has made such a big deal over nothing. Just to conclude, that IP editor I also reverted had one edit to his or her name and that edit was to the ratings graph. That to me is highly suspicious as I reaaaaally doubt a random person who has never edited a Wikipedia page before would know about graphs or how to change them. What are the odds of that huh? More so that the IP editor just happened to edit when this little disagreement was going on. I'm not one to throw accusations but read between the lines. Just to double confirm my point, I refuse to be drawn into this nonsensical dispute and if you want to sanction me for refusal so be it. You have my statement and if thats not enough, so be it. I don't edit Wikipedia to deal with hurt feelings because someone is upset about being reverted. Thanks. Esuka (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by TedEdwards Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. As a user who evidently has a larger screen resolution than Alex 21 and Esuka, I am not affected by the width of the graph. However, as Alex provided clear evidence, I believe there is a problem. I looked at the graph after I became aware of the discussion, and I suppose now the bars are closer together (in slight contrast with my earlier reply, where I implied I didn't notice a difference), but I am not suddenly struggling the read the graph more. And also, if Radiphus is claiming they are stuggling to read the graph, surely Alex and Esuka would be struggling more, considering they have lower screen resolutions? Neither of them is claiming they can't read the graph, so I stand by a earlier comment that Radiphus is picking a fight against nothing. --TedEdwards 23:07, 20 September 2019 (UTC) Talk:List of American Horror Story episodes discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. I've read the talk page, and frankly, the conduct has all round been pretty atrocious. Slinging references to policy pages about each others behaviour is not helpful, especially when most of you are guilty of poor conduct. I don't see an accessibility issue caused here by reducing the table by 38 pixels, which is an insignificant change and I would encourage the original poster to drop the matter and move on. (I personally use a 2k display and I see everything in the table just fine). Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 08:59, 21 September 2019 (UTC) I have nothing else to say, except one thing. Esuka, please know that you are a complete idiot. Not trying to offend you, just reading between the lines. The IP that tried to fix the graph width was from Australia (i pointed this out in the article's talk page) and i am from Greece. For all i know, it could be you that logged out and then reverted yourself to make me look bad. I am very disappointed at the way this has been handled and the indifference to readability issues. Noone has commented so far on how uncommon the inconsistent spacing is amongst published sources. Perhaps i should have also notified WikiProject Usability that concerns itself with the Visual appearance of Wikipedia; making it 'easy on the eyes', and standardized, but i don't have the energy nor the time to continue dealing with this issue. Just to prove that this an actual problem for me (i shouldn't have to do that), i would like to note that i am the one that wrote the code on Module:Television ratings graph, so that there is always an automatically adjusted 2px space between the bars (see first and second edit), and i have also created Category:Articles with television ratings graphs that use the width parameter to keep an eye on that, which is how i was notified about Alex 21's change to the template. I am really starting to hate this place. Radiphus (talk) 11:53, 21 September 2019 (UTC) I have striked the uncivil comment made towards another editor. Conduct like this is not acceptable. Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 12:08, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Further personal attacks and name-calling. Disappointing. This is not the place for that; that is, DRN or Wikipedia in general. -- /Alex/21 12:09, 21 September 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict) Alex 21 - I think what set Radiphus off (as well as this discussion in general) and in a heated direction was that Radiphus interpreted your initial comment (as well as many of your responses) there as chippy, snarky, and with a negative demeanor and conduct toward his ideas and thoughts, which eventually had him/her doing it in return to you. Things obviously went further and further from there, and I think that you both just need to clarify some confusion in that regard, apologize for any confusion and where comments were given or interpreted negatively, and work together positively from there. Nobody should be calling another editor an "idiot", and we should make sure that any comments we make don't give the impression that their input or idea is stupid or assume bad faith on their part. Use your words, not your voice. It's the rain that grows flowers and trees, not the thunder. ;-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:41, 21 September 2019 (UTC) I'm disappointed to see that Radiphus has retired and did so in such a fashion. I feel that the discussion on the article talk page could've overall been started and handled much better than it was. The matter could've been discussed and resolved peacefully had at least one of the users involved just took a moment to try and calm things down and offer to start things over and on the right foot with one another, and Radiphus would still be here. I'm not implying or casting blame on anybody at all; I'm simply saying that heated discussions and incivility by those involved are a group effort, and they can easily be avoided. That being said, I will say that the incivility by Radiphus was not okay in any regard, and it's unfortunate to see discussions resort to such conduct. Incivility only makes things worse, and when someone resorts to violating that policy, they've stopped putting the project first at that moment. It's really too bad to see that this happened... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:47, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Yes, indeed, I did find his comments chippy, snarky, and with a negative demeanor and conduct toward my ideas and thoughts. Well said. "Gain a consensus" for a width change of 38px to remove a scrollbar that only one editor disagrees against? Why? What did he want me to do, hold an RFC for such a trivial, minor edit? It was my initial edit (yes, I was the one who made the initial edit) that he decided was faked and that he needed to edit-war against instead of just asking me why I made it. I frown heavily upon such behaviour. -- /Alex/21 12:50, 21 September 2019 (UTC) In response to the second edit, his over-reaction is not the fault of the other editors who took place in the discussion. This is his own decision, and I wish him all the best in whatever he decides to do next. -- /Alex/21 12:51, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Alex 21 - I agree, and I edit conflicted with you while I was adding clarification to my thoughts to my follow-up comment above. I apologize if it initially implied a cast of blame upon anyone regarding the cause of Radiphus' retirement. I was absolutely not trying to do such a thing. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:56, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Exactly, and thankyou. I didn't want to comment on this issue beyond my initial statement but I'm surprised he has resorted to personal attacks. Which further reinforces your earlier point. I also just want to say and I forgot to say this earlier but I am happy to abide by what decisions are reached here by the admin or volunteers. If you believe that Radiphus is correct I won't revert anyone readjusting the graphs further. Esuka (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Radiphus has been warned about conduct (but the same warning applies to everyone here). They've since retired from Wikipedia. That said, I was disappointed by the talk page discussion overall and would recommend everyone considers how they interact with each other in future. I've made my comments on the content question here, I feel the status quo is fine and consider this discussion closed. Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 12:40, 21 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:list of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia#country categorization dispute

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia#country categorization dispute (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Lo meiin (talk · contribs) AuH2ORepublican (talk · contribs) WarKosign (talk · contribs) Dispute overview there is an ongoing and contentious debate as to whether Palestine should be grouped with the 193 UN members and Vatican or with Kosovo, Taiwan, etc. There are two sides of the debate - Yes, Palestine should in fact be categorized with the UN members and Vatican, as it succeeded in the first step of UN membership application (overwhelming approval of the GA), exceeds 70% recognition (almost 140 countries) across 4 continents, is a UN observer, it could be a member, but the US veto is blocking that, and the rest is the easy part, and israels claim on it isn't recognized internationally - No, Palestine should NOT in fact be grouped in such a way as it is unrecognized by the majority of politically and economically influential powers, was rejected UN membership by threat of US veto and 8/9 UNSC only, it is claimed by another UN member state, and UN observer membership only allows increased accesss to UN agencies, something with kosovo and Taiwan somewhat have Have you tried to resolve this previously? - RFCs - Myriad discussions - unilateral edits in favour of all - notifying various noticeboards to raise attention to the issue - third opinions How do you think we can help? - Devise a panel of neutral, NPOV, credible, and independent panel of experts on the A-I conflict to make an inquiry on the issue - Find the most fair, objective, NPOV, and least offensive and.or controversial way to categorize Palestine on wikipedia that suits all - Help all parties at dispute reach a fair compromise and consensus Summary of dispute by AuH2ORepublican Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by WarKosign Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:list of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia#country categorization dispute discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Italian language#Official minority language in Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by DavideVeloria88 on 09:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Italian language#Official minority language in Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• DavideVeloria88 (talk · contribs)
• Springpfühler (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages protects the Italian language in Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina as a minority language; however, few people actually speak it in these countries. So the question is: should they be included in the infobox as countries where Italian is recognized as a minority language or not? According to some, Romania and Bosnia-Herzegovina must not be entered in the infobox as only this card says that, but the Template:Infobox language says the parameter minority is for "countries in which it is a recognised/protected minority language" and that is "intended for legal protection and de jure recognition".

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk about it with other users, but no solution has been found.

How do you think we can help?

Checking whether Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina can be included in the infobox of the Italian language as done on other pages.

Summary of dispute by Springpfühler

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Italian language#Official minority language in Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi, I'm a mediator here at DRN. I'd recommend notifying the other editor of this discussion. I've read over the discussion page and have some input. I'm happy for an open discussion to take place here. The Italian language article currently lists Croatia and Slovenia as countries Italian is a recognised minority language, and this is backed up by their articles - Croatia#Languages writes Minority languages are in official use in local government units where more than a third of population consists of national minorities or where local legislation defines so. Those languages are Czech, Hungarian, Italian..., and then for Slovenia#Languages, it says Hungarian and Italian, spoken by the respective minorities, enjoy the status of official languages in the ethnically mixed regions along the Hungarian and Italian borders, to the extent that even the passports issued in those areas are bilingual. So we have clearly defined recognition by the government of the country. Do we have sources from the Romanian or Bosnian/Herzegovinan governments about the recognition of Italian as a recognised minority language? That seems to be the bar that has to be met here. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 13:24, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages has been signed and ratified by the government of Romania and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Sources: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. And according to thei articles: Bosnia and Herzegovina#Languages: "the 1992 European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, Bosnia and Herzegovina recognizes the following minority languages: Albanian, Montenegrin, Czech, Italian [...]"; and in the page Romania it is listed in the Infobox country as Recognised minority language. DavideVeloria88 (talk) 19:24, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

The Template:Infobox language says that Minority language is "intended for legal protection and de jure recognition"; that Treaty has been signed and ratified by Romania and Bosnia. Also, previously Romania and Bosnia were added in the Infobox with the word "(de jure)" to indicate precisely that they are recognized by the treaty. DavideVeloria88 (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2019 (UTC)