Talk:Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by PenangLion (talk | contribs) at 12:40, 4 March 2022 (→‎Crisis?: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Requested move 24 February 2022

2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian conflict – 'Conflict' more precisely describes the situation, being the type of crisis Kehkou (talk) 01:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a merger request! There will still be two separate articles, so "separation of articles" is not a valid argument here (and should not be counted toward consensus). I see now that maybe Leadup/Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a much better name than "conflict" but I think it is too late to change that. We would have to hold a whole new discussion. This is not a response to any particular editor, but rather of the recent trends here. Kehkou (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's been war for Ukraine since 2014...I guess people don't remember. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They just hit Kharkiv with missiles.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" Breaking: massive explosions just now in Kramatorsk. At least four. Very big. [1] And from two WaPo reporters: Russian President Vladimir Putin announced that Russia is undertaking a "special military operation" in Ukraine saying his goal is to demilitarize and denazify the country but not occupy it. [2] I’m hearing booms in Kharkiv. [3] XOR'easter (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ALT1: support move to Leadup to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - The complementary/sub- article 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine already exists based on rough consensus by active editors for a split; some non-so-active contributors to the article want to wait a week for formal consensus on a split and one editor has hit the WP:3RR limit there. Better un-redirect that article if there is sufficient support rather than start a new article. Renaming this article to Leadup to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and doing some transfers of material would make sense in terms of WP:RS, theme and WP:SIZESPLIT. (The Kalanchak border post appears to have been overrun and the webcam went offline; not a WP:RS, though. Another non-WP:RS, Bryce Wilson, based in Kramatorsk, claims that "Kramatorsk has been attacked".) Boud (talk) 03:13, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Casting WP:ASPERSIONS, and for what. That's fine. I spent years contributing to these articles, from the moment this nonsense started in 2014. I am trying to get people stop and think before they proceed, and to follow Wikipedia guidelines. But if you want to forge ahead and create a mess, that's your prerogative. Enjoy. RGloucester — ☎ 03:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RGloucester: My apology - I only meant to refer to this particular article. I don't have an overview of the older articles since 2014. Boud (talk) 03:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse ALT1 as alternate namespace if the final state of consensus warrants it. -Kehkou (talk) 10:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But, if that were the case, the word we'd want is 'war', not the euphemism 'conflict'. All the more reason to wait. RGloucester — ☎ 03:38, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine exists. Reuters. UN Security Council live. Boud (talk) 03:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As this article is about the buildup primarily, and the invasion began only in 2022. Should this article stay as the lead up and a seperate article be devoted to the actual war/invasion? Strong Oppose Clearly invasion article is devoted to the conflict and this is just the prelude events prior to 2/24. Yeoutie (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is a big organisational problem. We have Russo-Ukrainian War, this article, 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. There will need to be a major restructuring, but we are not in a position to do this now. RGloucester — ☎ 03:55, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RGloucester Personally I find it pretty conflicting. It will be likely merged upon a newer consensus like the example you stated earlier (Donbas). Hope everything goes smoothly with the articles. Cheers, PenangLion (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Putin declare war... OspreyPL 03:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: The U.N. Security Council's emergency security meeting is convening; France's representative called Russian's actions "war". Conflict is certainly warranted. Will likely be need to be adjusted as more information develops. Svenskbygderna (talk) 04:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this article should continue to be described as a crisis and should not include events past the 24th of February. instead it should remain as a description of the events leading up to the subsequent invasion, like the July crisis was for WW1 IAmSeamonkey (talk) 04:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose wp:CRYSTAL applies; active combat has not started. Let's not jump the gun. 142.157.192.122 (talk) 04:23, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Wait, as it appears that there are possibly signs of a conflict being reflected in RS, on both the russian, and the ukrainian sides, ie TASS, informburo ukrainy. 142.157.192.122 (talk) 05:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rather, along the lines of Lead-up to the Iraq War. For there is no history books with the set name for this series of events.Axxxion (talk) 05:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I feel this idea could work as well, but uncertainties certainly hindered the decisions. PenangLion (talk) 05:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Putin's removal from office would be a political solution, but anyways. GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Crisis has become conflict - I would now say Support or Merge. A normal peep (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, and for events from 24.02.2022 onwards we have 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. The invasion isn't the scope of this article. Super Ψ Dro 09:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a merger request! There will still be two separate articles, so "separation of articles" is not a valid argument here (and should not be counted toward consensus). I see now that maybe Leadup/Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a much better name than "conflict" but I think it is too late to change that. We would have to hold a whole new discussion. This is not a response to any particular editor, but rather of the recent trends here. Kehkou (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close as stale / no consensus - the situation has changed so much since this discussion opened that most of the comments older than ~3 days are out of date. A new discussion can be opened if a new title is still deemed necessary. Ibadibam (talk) 19:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, older ones are OoD and newer ones miss the point entirely. Kehkou (talk) 22:12, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree per Khekou. PenangLion (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian claims of nuclear armament

2/27/22 the russians have stated that they will be arming nukes[1] should we add this? Diepanzerwaffles (talk) 17:21, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Putin puts Russia's nuclear forces on alert as fighting in Ukraine continues". www.cbsnews.com. Retrieved 2022-03-01.

War

This isnt a crisis its a war. You are being used by kremlin to spread their propaganda by not calling it an invasion 109.173.217.77 (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@109.173.217.77: You're looking at the wrong article. You want either Russo-Ukrainian War or 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. — Czello 20:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2022

From: Continued violence and escalation To: Continued escalation

From: The next day, the mission confirmed the death of a child in Russian-occupied Donbas, but failed to establish a link between the purported "Ukrainian drone strike" and the child's death.[107]

To: The next day, the mission confirmed the death of a child in Russian-occupied Donbas, but failed to establish a link between the purported "Ukrainian drone strike" and the child's death.[107]. Russian media had previously fabricated a story of child getting killed by Ukranian shelling in 2015[1] VainiusI (talk) 21:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Crisis?

What would have to happen to call this conflict a war instead of a "crisis"? Matrek (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Matrek Then it won't fit the description of the events. A war is an intense armed conflict: this crisis is not. There are no formal territorial incursions by the Russian forces. PenangLion (talk) 17:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? There is no what? No Russian military incursion on Ukrainian territory? Or just "no formal"? What does that mean? Russian tanks and infantry around Kyiv and shelling civilian areas in the city are what, sightseeing trip? Matrek (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you have not realized that there are at least 28 articles covering the entire topic. Look at the infobox, look at the dates. PenangLion (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Matrek See the move request above. There is an article for both the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and the overall Russian-Ukrainian War. I do agree, however, that a better, more neutral name is needed.Kehkou (talk) 22:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/08/russian-media-fabricated-story-about-a-child-getting-killed-by-ukrainian-shelling-the-bbc-says/
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