Talk:Suicide methods: Difference between revisions
→Alternative hatnote: +oppose |
Atlantic306 (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 224: | Line 224: | ||
*:{{re|Gimubrc}} While the original may possibly violate [[WP:RELATED]], do you feel the [[#Alternative hatnote]]s really have that problem? They both are worded substantially similar to {{tl|About}}. –<span style="font-family:CG Times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]] [[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]]</sup></span> 21:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC) |
*:{{re|Gimubrc}} While the original may possibly violate [[WP:RELATED]], do you feel the [[#Alternative hatnote]]s really have that problem? They both are worded substantially similar to {{tl|About}}. –<span style="font-family:CG Times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]] [[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]]</sup></span> 21:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC) |
||
*::Yes, I still feel the alternative hatnote has the same problem. I find it implausible to me that someone who looks up suicide methods would actually have been looking up methods of suicide prevention, so WP:RELATED is still an issue and I therefore remain opposed to this proposal - much as I might sympathize with the good intentions behind it. [[User:Gimubrc|Gimubrc]] ([[User talk:Gimubrc|talk]]) 21:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC) |
*::Yes, I still feel the alternative hatnote has the same problem. I find it implausible to me that someone who looks up suicide methods would actually have been looking up methods of suicide prevention, so WP:RELATED is still an issue and I therefore remain opposed to this proposal - much as I might sympathize with the good intentions behind it. [[User:Gimubrc|Gimubrc]] ([[User talk:Gimubrc|talk]]) 21:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC) |
||
*'''Strong Support''' as an antidote to the sociopathic nature of this article that should be deleted on public safety grounds. How long before it's invoked in the courts ? [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 20:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC) |
|||
=== Alternative hatnote === |
=== Alternative hatnote === |
||
* {{tq|For information on methods of suicide [[Crisis intervention|intervention]], please see: [[suicide prevention#Interventions|Suicide prevention § Intervention]].}} |
* {{tq|For information on methods of suicide [[Crisis intervention|intervention]], please see: [[suicide prevention#Interventions|Suicide prevention § Intervention]].}} |
Revision as of 20:52, 19 August 2019
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Suicide methods article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 730 days |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Suicide methods. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Suicide methods at the Reference desk. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Wikipedia is not censored. Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Wikipedia's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options for not seeing an image. |
This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This page was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past. |
Hesitation wound was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 July 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Suicide methods. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Template:Findsourcesnotice This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ln168282 (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 January 2019 and 16 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Edwarchng, Chung.esther (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Edwarchng, Chung.esther, Mdoherty44.
New content
Thanks User:Everymorning for the edits, new content and studies cited. Greatly improved the sections covered by your contributions! Shabidoo | Talk 22:22, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
There is no information available on drug overdoses 😔 Leonie Dee (talk) 10:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Is this a support group for family members who have suffered the loss of a family member or is it for support for ppl feeling like committing suicide? Leonie Dee (talk) 10:56, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Suicide methods. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111126204613/http://forums.yellowworld.org/archive/index.php/t-3947.html to http://forums.yellowworld.org/archive/index.php/t-3947.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726151006/http://archinte.highwire.org/cgi/content/summary/153/24/2723 to http://archinte.highwire.org/cgi/content/summary/153/24/2723
- Added
{{dead link}}
tag to http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/content/extract/349/4/325 - Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100222222000/http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/content/extract/337/17/1236 to http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/content/extract/337/17/1236
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:14, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Subject: Firearms; Paragraph 3, Sentence 5: “…circulation…suicide…” misspelled.
Subject: Firearms; Paragraph 3, Sentence 5: “…suicide…” misspelled as “…suicice…” and “…circulation…” misspelled as “…circulaton…”
full context: “The United States has both the highest number of suicides and firearms in _circulaton_ in a developed country and when gun ownership rises so too does _suicice_ involving the use of a firearm.[31]” — Preceding unsigned comment added by WTF Actual (talk • contribs) 22:19, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Is this America only? As I'm a Australian. Leonie Dee (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. Leonie Dee (talk) 10:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
a form missing
All these forms one thing in common, ending a life. One from of ending a life is missing; retire. A person wants to end their life and are willing to do it. A person has spent their life trying to end it and this is the last thing to do, nothing after retirement, death. Feeling that the hope of life is gone is retirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeremyrunt (talk • contribs) 15:59, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- While this may be the case per the motives of a limited number of old age suicides, this article is about methods of suicide, not motives. Shabidoo | Talk 22:42, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Should be deleted
This encourages people to take kill themselves, the point of Wikipedia is to provide helpful, useful information not to tell them to commit suicide, so blame's on Wikipedia for 20% of the world's deaths!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.177.210 (talk) 20:42, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
- Our readers are not mindless infants who need to be protected or shielded from knowledge because of what they might do with it. We don't play kindergarten teacher and we don't censor objective, verifiable, reliable information presented in a neutral point of view...just because it makes some people uncomfortable or because they may use that information to make possibly questionable decisions. You have fundamentally misunderstood the "point" of wikipedia. Check out the five pillars of this project: WP:PILLARS Shabidoo | Talk 00:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- The request is strangely worded (and misplaced), Shabidoo; but your response seems odd. First, I don't know why you are bringing up "mindless infants". Secondly, I checked out the five pillars and was struck by the possible relevance here of the fifth. -- Hoary (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Readers are not mindless infants. They can read the material provided and make their own conclusions about the topic and do what they want with it. Our role is not to protect people but to provide well sourced reliable information. We aren't kindergarten teachers censoring info deemed dangerous to the vulnerable.
- As for the 5th pillar, I'm not at all sure what the 5th pillar has to do with censoring information. You ignore the rules to if they get in the way of making an article better. Not to align the article with an ideology or advocacy nor to deprive information from readers.Shabidoo | Talk 22:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- On "mindless infants" (again!), "kindergarten teachers", and "an ideology or advocacy", Shabidoo, please see Straw man. Anyway, IP-who-posted-the-question, requests for deletion from Wikipedia are commonplace. They're ineffective if made on the article's talk page. If you want to have an article such as this one deleted, this is what you have to do. Note that the process is rather complex, that it requires persuasive reasoning and (normally) citation of policy, that for this article the process has been tried eight times already (here's the eighth), and that a ninth attempt will undoubtedly fail unless it cites facts and factors that haven't already been cited or is hugely more persuasive than any of the preceding eight. (Don't confuse "persuasive" with "impassioned": any sign of passion is likely to doom the attempt.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hory perhaps you should refer to the article Metaphor, might help you figure all this out. Shabidoo | Talk 23:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very possibly, Shabidoo, I am having trouble figuring all this out, whether because of incompetence in English, senility, retardation, or something else. In the meantime, rather than "metaphor", I'd venture "auxesis". -- Hoary (talk) 04:06, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hory perhaps you should refer to the article Metaphor, might help you figure all this out. Shabidoo | Talk 23:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- On "mindless infants" (again!), "kindergarten teachers", and "an ideology or advocacy", Shabidoo, please see Straw man. Anyway, IP-who-posted-the-question, requests for deletion from Wikipedia are commonplace. They're ineffective if made on the article's talk page. If you want to have an article such as this one deleted, this is what you have to do. Note that the process is rather complex, that it requires persuasive reasoning and (normally) citation of policy, that for this article the process has been tried eight times already (here's the eighth), and that a ninth attempt will undoubtedly fail unless it cites facts and factors that haven't already been cited or is hugely more persuasive than any of the preceding eight. (Don't confuse "persuasive" with "impassioned": any sign of passion is likely to doom the attempt.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- The request is strangely worded (and misplaced), Shabidoo; but your response seems odd. First, I don't know why you are bringing up "mindless infants". Secondly, I checked out the five pillars and was struck by the possible relevance here of the fifth. -- Hoary (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Why don't we include consequences for ALL of the methods if someone fails to commit suicide as well as documented examples? OfficerAPC (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Still shouldn't be up here, you still shouldn't assist suicide by giving someone a way to do it. I mean, come on. I personally have dealt with the urge and to be honest, I've asked multiple suicidal people and they agree that if they are told how, they would do it because it feels like ur telling them it's ok. Yes, they have a mind of their own but it dont work like normal, filled with sadness, hatred, despair, and death. Our mind is coruppte by what we are told. Think about that. NoReasontodie (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2018
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Yes i want to 62.97.245.133 (talk) 11:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Your request (if it is a request) is incomprehensible and therefore cannot be carried out. -- Hoary (talk) 12:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
What's the point of this article?
What are you mad? What's the point of this article? To help people kill themselves? Do you also have articles on how to get away with murdee, become the dictator of the world, commit genocide, sell illegal drugs? I'm shocked — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.37.115.243 (talk) 08:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- The point is to inform the inquisitive reader about the methods people use for killing themselves.
- You are shocked, and you seem to want the article deleted. (Sometimes I do as well.) Neither expressing your shock nor asking rhetorical questions will do anything whatever toward having the article deleted. I repeat what I said a little way above on this very page: [R]equests for deletion from Wikipedia are commonplace. They're ineffective if made on the article's talk page. If you want to have an article such as this one deleted, this is what you have to do. Note that the process is rather complex, that it requires persuasive reasoning and (normally) citation of policy, that for this article the process has been tried eight times already (here's the eighth), and that a ninth attempt will undoubtedly fail unless it cites facts and factors that haven't already been cited or is hugely more persuasive than any of the preceding eight. (Don't confuse "persuasive" with "impassioned": any sign of passion is likely to doom the attempt.). -- Hoary (talk) 09:04, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- An article that presents factual information is not the same as a how to guide. There is an article about drugs. No article about how to sell them. There is an article about genocide...no article about how to pull off a genocide. Similarly, this is an article documenting suicide methods from various angles...and there is no article on "how to commit suicide" because how to articles aren't done on wikipedia.
- If the article was divided into "recommended methods of suicide" and "not recommended ones" and the pros and cons were given and a details instructions on how to take the right combination of pills and how not to implicate people who help you...then your analogy of this article with "how to become the dictator of the world" would be reasonable. However this article is not a how to commit suicide but an objective presentation of facts, useful for many reasons that have nothing to do with committing suicide. But it isn't a how to guide. Those aren't allowed on wikipedia and are questionable at best. Shabidoo | Talk 01:19, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Merged
I think Self strangulation and Hanging should be merged.101.178.163.19 (talk) 06:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure. Not all people who hang themselves die from suffocation, there are other kinds of bodily trauma that lead to death. Also the two acts can be quite different in preparation and difficulties in implementation as well as the rate of death. Shabidoo | Talk 22:46, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
- Ohhh.. I see. I believe that hanging people die from suffocation.. Unless they are shot while they are being hanged.101.178.163.19 (talk) 06:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry but no. Hanging can involve the breaking of the neck with death so rapid you don't have time to suffocate. In these cases...there is no actual strangulation but the rapid termination of the nervous system. Yes...most self hanging is strangulation...but not all of it and even if it is a simple hanging with no fall or jerk, the victim can still die first from other physiological symptoms before there is time to suffocate such as the closing of the carteroid artery and other affects of a change in blood flow to the head/brain. And there other indirect causes of death other than a simple lack of oxygen. Hanging is a method of suicide which can include strangulation but definitely not limited to it. Shabidoo | Talk 23:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ohhh.. I see. I believe that hanging people die from suffocation.. Unless they are shot while they are being hanged.101.178.163.19 (talk) 06:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
King of summer
First of all, this article isn't going anywhere. There is next to no chance it will be deleted or censored as it doesn't break any policies and a massive encyclopedia covers all major topics. If you have a problem with wikipedia's policies, I suggest taking it up with the community. Your attempted edit doesn't contribute to the content of the article, doesn't provide information or improve it but instead is instead is a debate on the ethics of not censoring information deemed offensive and theoretically "dangerous"...all in the middle of an article. Article pages are for improving the article, not policy debate. In fact, even on talk pages, general policies aren't up for debate...but are there for improving the article. We've covered your claims numerous times in other discussions here and on every occasion we follow wikipedia policies which back up our counter arguments. The policies aren't perfect but they are there for good reasons, reasons you would approve of in other articles you would deem essential that shouldn't be censored even though it offends "others" or are considered dangerous by "others". Hopefully you can contribute to the article and help improve it. Every article can always be improved. The policies however aren't going away. This article stays and will not be censored. Shabidoo | Talk 00:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2018
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
extended description to the carbon monoxide section needed [redacted] Mruczusmialkon (talk) 11:40, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: per WP:NOTHOWTO. While this article is not censored, there's no need to directly provide an instruction manual. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:04, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
This article IS censored. Every one has the right to leave this world if one needs to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mruczusmialkon (talk • contribs) 13:17, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Mruczusmialkon: That is not relevant. This is an encyclopaedia article not a how-to guide. Thryduulf (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2019
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
suicide is not the answer stop it right now and get help 197.156.95.19 (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Balkywrest (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
Please don't kill yourself everyone loves you, please seek help call 116 123! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.153.153 (talk) 15:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
I think this is a great informative article with plenty of reliable sources. Specifically covers suicide methods as mentioned in the title and addresses many ways people commit suicides with good statistics to add more content to the article. If I could improve this article I would possibly suggest a section for controversy with certain methods of suicide and how it can be prevented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edwarchng (talk • contribs) 17:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- Every method of suicide listed in the article should include consequences for failed suicide attempts. 9March2019 (talk) 03:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2019
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
very inappropriate do not commit suicide call the help line Itsyaboi121 (talk) 03:32, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- while I agree with your views, there is no edit requested DannyS712 (talk) 08:23, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2019
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please apply the reference changes specified in the following diff: [1] 79.168.3.237 (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- Done NiciVampireHeart 09:49, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks! 79.168.3.237 (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2019
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the following line again:
''If you or anyone you know needs help, you can [[List of suicide crisis lines|talk to someone on a crisis help line in your country by clicking here]].''
It is a non-encyclopedic PSA that has already been removed once. [2] 79.168.3.237 (talk) 19:00, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- Already done DannyS712 (talk) 08:01, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks! 79.168.3.237 (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2019
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This article can help people to kill themselfs. Why don't you take this article down? I mean... people don't have to know everything....? 87.97.33.124 (talk) 15:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: Wikipedia is not censored --DannyS712 (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Since we cannot censor this article, let's include consequences for failed attempts at suicide for EVERY listed method. 9March2019 (talk) 01:20, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
- In theory there is nothing wrong with doing that but your post gives the impression that you want to make these edits because of frustrations about not limiting information. Please keep the language neutral and please avoid using a tone that beyrays advocacy or anti-suicide campaigning. If you can find good sources for each and every method per their consequences and keep the text in reasonable proportion to the length of the methods themselves, I'm sure it would improve the article. Conversely if there are methods which have little to no documented consequences, it would be reasonable to write that text as well. Shabidoo | Talk 07:53, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Hatnote posted by MJL
I don't know which talk page consensus you are referring to. The hatnote is reverted because it violates several wikipedia policies including WP:NOTADVOCATE. No discussion on this talk page will change that and whenever the hatnote is posted on this article, it will be reverted. If you want the hatnote to stay, then you'll have to take this up with the community and convince them to change wikipedia's policies. The best way to do that is to go to the policy talk page and discuss this. Your chances of success are extremely small but you are welcome to try. Please direct your efforts to changing policy and not posting hatnotes that violate those policies. Shabidoo | Talk 15:22, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Shabidoo: [Thank you for the ping] what on Earth are you talking about? Hddty. reverted me citing consensus on Talk:Suicide, and I rightfully pointed out that this is a different article. Also, nothing within that hatnote violated WP:NOTADVOCATE. It's patently absurd to say someone looking for information on suicide methods would not be served by having a hat note leading to List of suicide crisis lines.
I don't need to change Wikipedia policies to get put a hatnote up. Hatnotes are navigational tools. Someone on this page might want info on another page on the same type of topic. You'd have a point if the hatnote said "please don't kill yourself." but it didn't. The hatnote saidFor information on suicide prevention and crises hotlines, please see List of suicide crisis lines.
which is just a custom implementation of {{Further information}}. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:48, 22 July 2019 (UTC)- Sigh. The hatnote is an unambigious attempt to steer readers towards anti-suicide advocacy (a list of hotline numbers...come on really?). It is not a "hey by the way you might be interested in this info" it's a very badly veiled message of "hey if you are considering suicide here is a list of numbers you should call who will provide you the help you need". It breaks policy. And the substance of this article hasn't changed. Most certainly NOT enough to justify reopening this debate which has been done numerous times and always results in the same answer. A reach-around attempt to evade policy won't work. Shabidoo | Talk 19:33, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- I prefer pings btw There has never been discussion on this article's talk pages about the inclusion of a hatnote. The idea came about from this RFC. I see no policy reason why to justify your position (especially calling this a
reach-around attempt to evade policy
).
Your stance fails to hold water in even the slightest sense of the phrase. You've positioned this debate as me pushing some sort of "anti-suicide advocacy" as if it was a cheap political opinion I held. It's very clearly not. This is simply about informing readers about some of our other bits of content (ie. the purpose of hatnotes). To do otherwise at this point is a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED on your part by premising this position off nonexistent consensus.
I'm fully prepared to seek out whatever method of dispute resolution is needed to wider input on this hatnote because I know I'm right here.
I'll end on this note: If the proposed hatnote has the effect of making even one person reconsider ending their life, so what? Them dying does not further our goals of building an encyclopedia. It's a good thing for them to be alive in all likelihood. Regards, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:16, 23 July 2019 (UTC)- If you want to waste people's time then go for it, it certainly won't be the first time you've brought people into a process that is a foregone conclusion. Your hatnote will not pass any "dispute resolution" process you try. That hatnote is totally bogus but good luck in any case. Shabidoo | Talk 12:34, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
- I started the RFC below. I was surprised at your choice to abstain from pinging me as preferred, but I am even more surprised that you seem to suggest some personal animosity towards some past action I have taken. I do not see how that adds anything to the discussion. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:04, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- If you want to waste people's time then go for it, it certainly won't be the first time you've brought people into a process that is a foregone conclusion. Your hatnote will not pass any "dispute resolution" process you try. That hatnote is totally bogus but good luck in any case. Shabidoo | Talk 12:34, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
- I prefer pings btw There has never been discussion on this article's talk pages about the inclusion of a hatnote. The idea came about from this RFC. I see no policy reason why to justify your position (especially calling this a
- Sigh. The hatnote is an unambigious attempt to steer readers towards anti-suicide advocacy (a list of hotline numbers...come on really?). It is not a "hey by the way you might be interested in this info" it's a very badly veiled message of "hey if you are considering suicide here is a list of numbers you should call who will provide you the help you need". It breaks policy. And the substance of this article hasn't changed. Most certainly NOT enough to justify reopening this debate which has been done numerous times and always results in the same answer. A reach-around attempt to evade policy won't work. Shabidoo | Talk 19:33, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
RFC: Hatnote at top
|
Should a neutrally worded hatnote directing users to List of suicide crisis lines be added to this page? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:57, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Related discussion(s)
- Talk:List of suicide crisis lines#RfC on List of suicide crisis lines, Not a directory, WP:LSC and Ignore all rules
- Talk:Suicide#Hatnotes
- Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposal to add suicidal disclaimer at Suicide
In the above section, there are claims made that this hatnote violates Wikipedia's policies. The hatnote reads as thus:
For information on suicide prevention and crises hotlines, please see List of suicide crisis lines.
I obviously disagree as this makes no mention of the reader committing to any specific action. It just provides a list of resources.
Separately, the situation on Talk:Suicide is different, but it may have some bearing on this RFC. Regards, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:57, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- No. It violates WP:RELATED. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:33, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
YesSupport inclusion of a hatnote to "suicide prevention" (Summoned by bot) there is a reasonable chance that this could help someone. It's a violation of RELATED, but IAR if it helps someone not commit suicide. signed, Rosguill talk 18:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC) 16:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- This is exactly what the hatnote is designed to achieve. It's not about providing resources its about activism. Thanks for illustrating the point many users have made countless times. Shabidoo | Talk 23:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
- User:Rosguill the best avaliable evidence does not support or refute a benefit of crises lines. Per the Lancet paper "Thus far, the evidence of telephone and internet intervention effectiveness is rather scarce and of low quality. Rapidly increasing utilisation of information and communication technologies in suicide prevention requires research assessing their efficacy" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- I was unaware of this, thanks for pointing it out. signed, Rosguill talk 16:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- User:Rosguill the best avaliable evidence does not support or refute a benefit of crises lines. Per the Lancet paper "Thus far, the evidence of telephone and internet intervention effectiveness is rather scarce and of low quality. Rapidly increasing utilisation of information and communication technologies in suicide prevention requires research assessing their efficacy" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- OBVIOUS NO The hatnote is a clear attempt to sneak around policy under the bogus excuse of "providing resources" when in reality it is a total disclaimer meant to direct suicidal people to suicide hotlines and is not about the convenient navigation to other information. It's already in the see also section. This violates multiple policies, not just WP:RELATED since it isn't at all a hat note directing readers who might be confused or lost per the title of the article but a redirect to stop users from hurting themselves but also WP:ADVOCACY which violates WP:NPOV. Wikipedia doesn't do disclaimers or warnings or prevention in general because drawing the line is impossible and we can go from "simply obvious warning" to very subjective advocacy in no time. That's why this policy is here. In an ideal world there would be a clear disclaimer at the top. Advocacy invites a slippery slope and the community has rejected it for obvious reasons. Shabidoo | Talk 23:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
- It's so interesting to me that holding the opinion that people should avoid killing themselves (which is supported by WP:RS) somehow makes me an anti-suicide advocate. I'm just a Wikipedia editor trying to ensure people get to the right page is all. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- This violates multiple policies. My opinion or your personal interests are irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shabidoo (talk • contribs) 17:39, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- No to "suicide crisis lines" But would support neutrally worded hatnote to "suicide prevention". Evidence for crisis lines is really poor. There is stuff for which there is evidence and we can link to suicide prevention were it is discussed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email)
- Support inclusion of hatnote to List of suicide crisis lines. Morally and ethically right to do so regardless of our policies. Maybe crisis lines do have a low success rate and maybe the evidence of their effectiveness is poor but if it helps one person that is enough for me Lyndaship (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- But what if it harms people per this concern raised in a 2007 paper "There were six calls where an ambulance was sent to a caller during a suicide attempt and it may very well be that the callers lives were saved. However, there were ten instances when a caller appeared to be in the process of a suicide attempt and the helper did nothing, and in at least one case the helper encouraged the caller to complete the attempt."
- And what about the opportunity cost if we could have done something better supported by the evidence? Talk:Suicide#What_has_better_evidence Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:01, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- In regard to evidence, I think its one of those areas of medicine that will never really have good evidence. If evidence is shown in one study, worldwide generalisability is poor. Theres little evidence in risk assessment for suicide as well. It is common practice to link to crisis lines, despite the lack of evidence, I think we should do the same. --[E.3][chat2][me] 12:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Strong support I think given the uniqueness of the question, it is very pertinent to pay attention to WP:IAR here. Whilst we're here to make an encyclopaedia, and the link to suicide crisis lines is arguably unencyclopedic from this article, this is definitely an ethically challenging area. I would strongly support for this article inclusion, especially as Wikipedia is not censored and the suicide methods article may have obvious unintended consequences. --[E.3][chat2][me] 12:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Also I note that WP:IAR is
improving or maintaining Wikipedia
with no mention of Wikipedia being an encyclopaedia. Inclusion clearly violates even WP:HERE and everything else, but in this page I think all are overridden. --[E.3][chat2][me] 12:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- No As much as it pains me to say it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Any particular reason? It'd help the closer with assessing consensus. I'll note that we are also workshopping an alternative hatnote below, so you are welcome to review that conversation as well and, if you think there is something worth supporting there, adjusting accordingly. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Many, some of which will cause some offense. One answer would be wp:not, which I feel this violates in an number of ways.Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- Support alternative hatnote from discussion below. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 21:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- Support main and alt per my comments at VPProp Wug·a·po·des 20:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- No-Violates WP:Related. Display name 99 (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Support alternative as discussed below. I'm happy to WP:IAR on this. Jschnur (talk) 07:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- Reluctant Oppose based on WP:NDA, WP:RELATED, and WP:DISC. Gimubrc (talk) 18:36, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Gimubrc: While the original may possibly violate WP:RELATED, do you feel the #Alternative hatnotes really have that problem? They both are worded substantially similar to {{About}}. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I still feel the alternative hatnote has the same problem. I find it implausible to me that someone who looks up suicide methods would actually have been looking up methods of suicide prevention, so WP:RELATED is still an issue and I therefore remain opposed to this proposal - much as I might sympathize with the good intentions behind it. Gimubrc (talk) 21:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Gimubrc: While the original may possibly violate WP:RELATED, do you feel the #Alternative hatnotes really have that problem? They both are worded substantially similar to {{About}}. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Support as an antidote to the sociopathic nature of this article that should be deleted on public safety grounds. How long before it's invoked in the courts ? Atlantic306 (talk) 20:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Alternative hatnote
For information on methods of suicide intervention, please see: Suicide prevention § Intervention.
- @Doc James and Rosguill: Would that be a sufficiently worded hatnote? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
How about
For information on methods of suicide prevention, see: suicide prevention.
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Seems a little redundant to say suicide prevention twice. We could just do:
For information on suicide intervention methods, please see: Suicide prevention.
- I also like saying please because it's more formal. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- I find the meaning of "suicide intervention methods" a little unclear. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:20, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Is "methods of suicide intervention?" better? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- I think "methods of suicide intervention" is the best wording suggested so far. signed, Rosguill talk 19:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- The result would be:
For information on methods of suicide intervention, please see: Suicide prevention.
- Is that a best alternative? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:11, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- The result would be:
- I think "methods of suicide intervention" is the best wording suggested so far. signed, Rosguill talk 19:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Is "methods of suicide intervention?" better? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- I find the meaning of "suicide intervention methods" a little unclear. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:20, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Neutrality would require the inclusion of a similar note on the suicide prevention article directing users here GideonF (talk) 13:25, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- Ah would oppose a hatnote from suicide prevention to here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:FALSEBALANCE –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:11, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- If you want it because it's encyclopedically relevant, then the relevance is symmetrical. If you want it because you personally hold anti-suicide beliefs that you want to promote, that would be a violation of WP:SOAPBOX GideonF (talk) 12:41, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- For the necessary hatnote from here, I think the term "suicide intervention" is clear enough, and seems to be the current term. DGG ( talk ) 21:15, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Okay thanks User:DGG will support that wording. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- weak support Whilst I support either hatnote in principle, I dont understand the argument based on weak evidence for crisis lines (this type of evidence is extremely difficult to develop in medicine, and will always have poor generalisability worldwide). Furthermore, if you extending that argument there is no evidence I have heard of to link a suicidal person to how society manages suicidal intervention and prevention. If that suicidal person doesn't have access to those things, such as being in a remote area or low income nation, it could in my limited opinion could also have unintended consequences as well and I would suggest a suicidal prevention expert's input here. But I certainly prefer weak evidence and expert opinion/common practice (ie. to crisis lines) to what might have no evidence. Also if this second hatnote has consensus suicide prevention and suicide intervention needs a far more global viewpoint / rewrite. --[E.3][chat2][me] 19:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Okay thanks User:DGG will support that wording. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Ah would oppose a hatnote from suicide prevention to here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- No-I see no difference. Display name 99 (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose but would weakly support something worded such as
This article is about methods of committing suicide. For information on methods to prevent suicides, see: suicide prevention.
-- Rockstonetalk to me! 20:01, 15 August 2019 (UTC)- @Rockstone35: If I understand it right, your position is essentially Wikipedia:Hatnote#Summarize or not? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:21, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @MJL: yes. In this case I think the hatnote should summarize the article. It is conceivable that someone going to Suicide Methods really did mean to look up methods of suicide prevention. Summarizing suicide methods clarifies which article they're at. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 21:23, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Rockstone35: If I understand it right, your position is essentially Wikipedia:Hatnote#Summarize or not? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:21, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Support either this or alternative proposed by User:Rockstone35 as reasonable and better than lacking hatnote. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 03:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as including a hatnote of this kind at all violates WP:RELATED regardless of how it is phrased. This said, if a hatnote is to be implemented, Doc James' version is probably the best one. Gimubrc (talk) 21:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia objectionable content
- C-Class Death articles
- Mid-importance Death articles
- C-Class Suicide articles
- Top-importance Suicide articles
- Suicide articles
- C-Class psychology articles
- Mid-importance psychology articles
- WikiProject Psychology articles
- C-Class medicine articles
- Low-importance medicine articles
- All WikiProject Medicine pages
- Wikipedia requests for comment