Talk:Millennials: Difference between revisions

Sources that don't talk about millennials or generations

This is an article about millennials as a generation; it's not a general article for every single bit of demographic information that exists anywhere. I don't think we should be using sources, or including significant text, that doesn't talk about millenials (or words to that effect, like Gen Y or clear discussion of generational cohorts that includes millenials.) That topic is already massively broad and has huge amounts of coverage; there's no need to include every poll that happens to cover that particular demographic, or everything published in 2001 that talks about kids, or every article saying that the world has changed in any context or whatever. I'm going to start going over the article to remove clearly non-millenial-related stuff. And some of this is just completely random data with no connection to millenials whatsoever - eg. paragraphs and sources about the economy of Europe with no mention, in the paragraphs or the sources, of any demographic or generational impact at all. That's pure WP:SYNTH, surely. --Aquillion (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

"Performing arts and forests" lacks citation

"A rural county's chances of having a performing arts organization is 60% higher if it is located near a national park or forest." Says who? 2600:1700:1936:4810:D90E:AECF:D65A:C76 (talk) 22:25, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Introducing 1980 in the lede

Richie wright1980 has made repeated changes to the date range in the lead to incorporate 1980, on the grounds that the pre-existing version misrepresents the date range section in the article. There is no official definition—you can find definitions ranging 1980–2004—but there are several sources in the article explicitly citing 1981–1996 as the most common frame (see second paragraph at Millennials#Date_and_age_range_definitions). So the phrase "Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1981 to 1996" is entirely consistent with the date range section.

Richie wright1980 has repeatedly added 1980 to the typical definition and added sources to this effect; however, his sources don't actually corroborate his claim. Yes, they provide sourcing for the 1980 date, but not for the claim that 1980 is the most common starting date. The problem here is not the "pedantry" of those of us reverting, but rather that of WP:SYNTHESIS by Richie wight1980, because he is essentially clumping together a bunch of sources that cite 1980 and drawing his own inferences from that.

If you look through the discussion archives you will see that I have consistently argued against a reductionist perspective at this article; there have been several editors who just wanted to go with the 1981–1996 range, but in the absence of an official definition I have argued for including the outlier years too. However, in the interests of neutrality and due weight it is important to make clear what the typical range is and what the outlier years are. Either way, the existing wording was established by an RFC at Talk:Millennials/Archive_14#RfC_about_the_date_range_in_the_lead_section so the wording should not be unilaterally changed without a consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Additionally, the sources given () aren't at all compelling. WP:MEDIUM isn't a reliable source, and two of the three others aren't remotely authoritative. McCrindle is noteworthy, but since he uses 15-year generations with start-years ending in "0" or "5", he typically doesn't agree with the majority. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Within the 'Date and age range definitions' section of the article, it is made clear that the Oxford Living Dictionaries describes a millennial as a person "born between the early 1980s and the late 1990s”. whilst Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines millennial as "a person born in the 1980s or 1990s. These dictionaries do not specify exact years.

The section goes on to further describe Jonathan Rauch's definition of 1981 to 1996 and Reuters argument that 1981 is the common starting point. I have not argued against that anywhwere nor made edits to counter that.

However, the section also goes on to describe that Australia's McCrindle Research uses 1980–1994 as well as Jean Twenge. It also mentions that CNN sometimes use 1980–2000.

There is also further mention of the 2009 report by Flynn who analysed the results of the Raven's Progressive Matrices test for British fourteen-year-olds from 1980 to 2008. Therefore, classifying that date range as a generation.

You will note my most recent edit “Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1980 (or more commonly 1981) to 1996”.

This is entirely consistent with the article and is entirely consistent with real world researchers. There is no re-definition going on here or personal opinion. My edits are entirely factual statements and there is no need to revert them. They can be further clarified to suggest that 1980 is 'sometimes' used as the starting point if necesarry to avoid any confusion.

However, what I think is happening here is people are averse to 1980 being used within the lede at all and that is not based on fact but personal opinion.

Richie wright1980 (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

As pointed out above, the issue is not one of sources providing different dates (there are many different sources providing different date ranges), but rather that there are two high-quality sources that explicitly state 1981–1996 is a "widely accepted definition"—a literature review also corroborates that this is the most frequently cited range, not 1980–1996. None of the sources you have offered comment on the prevalence of 1980. Stating that 1981–1996 is the most typical definition is consistent with the date range section, and other start/end dates that fall outside of this range are captured by the broader definition, so I reject your argument as a misapplication of WP:V and WP:WEIGHT. Betty Logan (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Then you could solve that by simply changing the sentence to Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. The generation is most typically defined as people born from 1981 to 1996, however a minority of researchers use 1980 as a starting point.

The article uses four noteworthy sources of 1980 being used: McCrindle Research, Jean Twenge, CNN and Flynn's research.

That is equal to the number of high quality sources that you have attributed to in your last comment.

Therefore, my amended and proposed sentence in the lede is entirely factual.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

"early 1980s as starting birth years" already includes 1980; we don't need to single out 1980 by saying a "minority of researchers use 1980". See WP:UNDUE: Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all... Some1 (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Why mention early 1980s at all then? What does that even mean? 1980,1981,1982,1983,1984? Remove it and specify 1980 and 1981 as the starting points usage. Early 1980s is vague.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, it isn't a tiny minority at all using 1980. Lots more sources can be provided quite easily. "Early 1980s" is vague and could mean literally anything. It isn't encyclopedic and there is no reason why that should stand and using 1980 with numerous sources to back it up should not stand. It's nonsensical.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Removing "the early 1980s" and replacing it with 1980 would not reflect the fuzzy nature of the demarcation, and precludes other years such as 1982 and even 1983, which are occasionally used. Wikipedia is not being vague, it is describing a vague definition. There are several different start points ranging 1980–1983 and several different end points ranging 1995–2004, which is why the lead uses the language it does. The lead should not be giving undue weight to the most extreme outliers. Wikipedia's approach is not too dissimilar to Britannica's—is Britannica "nonsensical" and "unencylopedic"? Betty Logan (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

References

RfC - 1980 as the alternative (earliest) starting birth year for millenials

I propose to improve the opening paragraph of the article to:

"Millennials, also known as Generation Y or Gen Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X and preceding Generation Z. There are no precise or set definitions although researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. It has been argued that millennials are typically defined as the generation born between 1981 to 1996, although 1980 has also been used as the earliest starting birth year."

A couple of people here have suggested that 1981 is the 'widely' accepted starting birth year and the lede should not contain any reference to 1980 at all. They cite two sources to support this case (). Only one of these sources supports this assertion while the other is out of date and not in support of this assertion in any case. There are countless examples of 1980 now being used as the starting year and it does not stand up to scrutiny that 1980 should be excluded from the lede. In any case, the article actually explicitly references 1980 as an alternative starting birth year within the "Date and age range definitions" section.

I propose to improve and clarify the lede based on the latest information and information already covered within the article. Therefore, making it more encyclopedic.Richie wright1980 (talk) 00:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The first paragraph of the introduction is OK as it is. Nerd271 (talk) 01:14, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. The statement that "1981 is the 'widely' accepted starting birth year" is based on two references - one of which is out of date and does not support that statement anyway. It is a leap of faith to suggest that it is 'widely accepted' and it is not based on fact but only on one argument found in one source. There are multiple sources using 1980 as the starting year, some of which claim that 1980 is also "widely accepted starting birth year". Some respected sources claim that 1980 is the starting year. Therefore, to suggest that it is 'widely' accepted is a subjective statement and is disputed. All I have suggested is to cite 1980 as the 'earliest' starting birth year. This is factually correct and is consistent with the facts withtout actually engaging in the real world disagreement. It is perfectly reasonable.

  See these sources which cite 1980 as the starting birth year....

  https://statushero.com/blog/the-geriatric-millenial

  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335196131_Transformasi_perpustakaan_untuk_generasi_millenial_menuju_revolusi_industri_40

  https://medicfootprints.org/are-millenials-shaping-the-nhs

  https://commons.emich.edu/loexconf2006/6

  https://www.planday.com/blog/attract-millennial-customers

  https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/tag/millenial-generation

  https://mccrindle.com.au/article/topic/generation-alpha/generation-alpha-defined

  https://info.angelfishfieldwork.com/market-research-fieldwork-blog/millennials-and-market-research-online-communities-the-perfect-match

  https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/millennial.asp

  https://scholarworks.merrimack.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=phs

  https://insights.gostudent.org/en/millenial-parents

  https://budgetbakers.com/millennial-money-advice-annoying

  https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=emergingwriters

  https://insurance.aon.co.uk/resource-center/Business-insights/Generation-X-vs-Millennials---What-are-the-Different-Attitudes-to-Work

  https://workforceinstitute.org/more-agility-in-a-vuca-world-with-a-millenial-mindset

  Richie wright1980 (talk) 01:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Contrary to the proposer's claim, the proposed wording would neither be an improvement nor clarify the definition, as discussed above at #Introducing_1980_in_the_lede for the following reasons:

1. Wikipedia is not being vague; it is defining a vague concept. There are plenty of sources that place the starting point for the demarcation between 1980 and 1983, and the end point between 1995 and 2004. That said, 1981–1996 is the most common definition. Therefore I believe the lead as it is ("Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1981 to 1996") is consistent with the reality of the demarcation. The approach used here is not dissimilar to that used by Britannica.
2. As Some1 points out in the above discussion, specially marking out 1980 as the "starting date" would give WP:UNDUE weight to an outlier. There is no special reason to single it out from other years in the early 1980s. It just looks pointy.
3. This is NOT an issue of sourcing; even though some of the sources brought forward by Richie wright1980 are dubious, others are reputable. Indeed, some of them are already used in the date range section to source the 1980 date. However, all these sources do is provide a source that some definitions begin with 1980, and do not comment on the prevalence of the 1980 date. By the same token 1982 and 1983 are also sourced in the article.
4. It is misleading to say only two sources are provided for the 1981–1996 date. This is not what is being sourced. What we are sourcing here is the specific claim that 1981–1996 is the most common date range used to define the demarcation i.e. the prevalence/dominance of the 1981–1996 date. Reuters states "Millennials are widely accepted as having been born between 1981 and 1996." The Economist doesn't say this verbatim, but says "Generations are squishy concepts, but using widely accepted definitions...Millennials, born between 1981 and 1996". Britannica is also in a similar vein, defining demarcation as 1981–1996 but conceding the definitions can vary by a couple of years.

The lead as it stands is consistent with the date ranges and the weighting of the dates outlined in the section at Millennials#Date_and_age_range_definitions. Betty Logan (talk) 01:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. I have added plenty of reliable sources above that support 1980 as the starting birth year - some of which claim that 1980 is in fact the widely used starting point. You are not able to argue otherwise as your whole argument is pinned on two sources only - one of which is out of date and does not support your view. Nevertheless, I am aware that other years such as 1982 and 1983 are also used. My proposed introduction does not contradict that. It makes clear that 1980 is the earliest starting birth year. That is a fact supported by plenty of sources. I am dubious as to why you would argue otherwise.Richie wright1980 (talk) 01:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment.Let me also correct your opening statement here: "Wikipedia is not being vague; it is defining a vague concept" Let's be absolutely clear, Wikipedia is made up of its contributors - of which includes both you, me and everyone else in collaboration. You are not the authority on Wikipedia. Language like that suggests that you have no interest in listening to other points of view. I see that you have been engaging in the same debate for at least the last 4 years. Is this subject personal to you at all? I am curious because I would suggest that it defies logic and is motivated by you attempting to gatekeep the page.

May I also correct your 3rd point. Some of my sources actually do argue that 1980 is 'widely accepted'. May I also add another very reliable source that also claims 1980 is the starting year:

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/2017-07/Ipsos%20-%20Millennial%20Myths%20and%20Realities.pdf

Not such an outlier opinion is it?

Richie wright1980 (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Betty Logan. The most commonly used year belongs in the lead, the distant second doesn't. Also note, if you look at the Date and age range definitions section of the article, there are 26 sources giving a start date of 1981, all of them more authoritative than the sources on your list. Dan Bloch (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)